Swapped long wall to short wall and now I am having some big issues

Thanks again Alan for stopping out for a listening session to address the issues.

I just posted my long and short wall room layouts in my system page

to better visualize things

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/92

I may just place the speakers along the front wall, leave the rack where it is and sit right up next to it for a quick assessment.

I also am going to bring some Salks and Paradigns in to test

as far as the off center arrangement

I could angle the speakers from the front left towards the back right position (will need to move the rack back to the front wall)

Skywachr - with the diagonal setup are you suggesting keeping one speaker in a corner pointing toward the couch then moving the other speaker inward but pointing it down the longest diagonal of the room? Sorry I just am not following. Having both at the same location. Do you have a reference or feel free to PM me.

Thanks

TOm

thanks guys

Skywachr - I am not following your test procedure.

Place your right speaker near the wall and play only it - then progressively move it inward toward the left speaker?

Al

answer

the switchbox has no resistors

those amps are not sensitive to no load condition

nearly all my room positioning listening was done with only one amp on.

I have also used less refined long speaker cable directly from the amps

Al

1) I have tried both sets of pre/amp combinations

very similar sounding (The Uesugi slightly more laid back) and both have the same artifacts

the analog section uses the Doshi photo stage for both (line in to the Uesugi.

The CD is much worse sounding than the vinyl.

2) I could ask Richard on the switch box - it is an industrial strength design and I do not hear degradation with it. I was very skeptical at first.

Both systems worked flawlessly on the switchbox in the long wall and I could switch back and forth although I usually just chose one.

I have played the speakers on the short wall with some longer speaker wire going directly to the speaker and bypassing the switch box. The box was helpful to "stretch" out the length for the longer runs with the short wall setup.

be forewarned

Well - I switched the speakers back to the long wall - but on the same wall as the equipment racks -  so opposite what I had before. not an ideal area adjacent to and behind the speakers with the racks and room cutout on the left. ceiling panels in the opposite orientation. The speakers were set up in the triangular method 9ft offset. I was 1.5 ft off the wall.

The bass immediately returned to an articulate well balanced sound with distinct notes, the midrange was warm and present and the highs not strident.

Back to a pleasing sound - not as resolving as before when optimized with the system on the opposite wall.

One album Alan and I listened to was The Who's Quadrophenia side 4. (Dr JImmy/The Rock/Love Reign O'er Me). This is a first pressing UK Track record which is absolutely vibrant and engaging.  On the short wall the highs were incredibly shrill and strident with the explosive cymbals overriding everything, tonally etched and completely dominating. The midrange was gone. The bass overpowering. Going back to the long wall with no tweaking and the large record cabinet offset on the left side removed (I did put some of the room absorption panels I am using there) - things were close to what I had before.  Very encouraging.

Cds were better but not as well resolved as the vinyl.

thanks skywachr I understand your comments on  arrangement of the speakers but do you put the chair in parallel to the diagonal - then determine the best seating by sliding along that diagonal access? Then drop the other speaker in at that similar distance on the front wall?

Mijostyn - the tweeter drivers are 4" apart - center to center of each tweeter. They also project very slightly towards each other to a central point creating a single wide dispersion high frequency. The response on my long wall setup was pinpoint details, tonality and presence and very distinct separation of instruments.

How many speakers has one seen with an array of tweeters separated by significant distances.  Those tall tower things with 10+ drivers come to mind. Texton arrays with 12 hydra tweeter heads.

the Ulysses are a very natural sounding speaker, They are not bright in the high frequencies.

Mijostyn you mentioned

"You can absolutely correct the frequency response with room control in the vicinity of the listening position and you can be clever with position and acoustic treatments. This is a problem with all dynamic point source speakers in one way or another depending on the speaker's design and the room they are placed in. With basic acoustic treatments an room control (speaker control) you can fix almost anything."

Anything in particularly you suggest?

In response

I do not want to touch any DSP compensation, I've looked into a lot of sound treatments. 1st reflection, ceiling, corner dispersion/absorption. Still proceeding. My long wall setup room treatments do not work in this setup. I have went from Real Traps to GIK which has more frequency and absorption/dispersion related specific products.  I haven't found a speaker position since removing my record cabinet that has had tamed bass. It's in progress. Tape measures, lasers and ears oh my. Jim Smith's Get Better Sound has been helpful for grid speaker placement arrays.   I am considering GIK soffit bass traps (floor to ceiling in the front corners) with range limiters which work predominantly in the 50-250 hz range. Most companies want to treat your room to the point of taking out the ambience.

 I have a friend who was ready to throw his hands up and take down his whole system and worked in minutia for months to finally get it right. He has a short wall setup like what I am trying to accomplish. He will be working with me on the next steps.

I took a number of things out of the room so my guess is that may be a big factor with the atrocious short wall sound.

I encourage your insight.

Thank you

Tom

I have updated my system listing to include the old long wall and new short wall layouts. I also added a pic of the opposite long wall speaker and rack position. This temporary setup sounds much better than the short wall position and is not as optimized as the original long wall location.  Note the less than ideal wall (left corner) and rack positioning around the speakers in this test location.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/92

Stringreen

I have only had this happen one other time.

I put two too many absorption treatments in my system and it suffocated things. A huge blanket over it all and a very shrill top end.

All the best in resolving your issues and thanks for the encouragement. Check out Jim Smith’s Get Better Sound book and video and in house Room Play services (not cheap). He also consults via email. His grid setup has been very useful to me in the past. That's why I am so stumped now - as I can't find something that converges without major trade offs.

The one assurance is that I can put things back to where they were and I just found out that a less than optimal long wall setup works.

I was looking to upgrade my speakers to the Apollo series and they would require a farther offset distance and utilize the length and width of the room more effectively.

Twoleftears

thank you for your insight (also 3 posts into the thread). It was on my list to try but I wanted to see if speaker position and ideally placed treatments would work. This allows a wider and longer room.

The great thing is that this idea only costs one’s time and patience.

The easy solution to going diagonal without moving the main rack is to move rack 2 on the same wall to the left of the main rack on the front side of the room and bring the speakers more into the corner.

There is an open doorway behind the couch. The back wall would not be parallel and have a strong corner but having the couch far enough away from it the wall would help.

The first reflection treatments would be quite different and probably out in the room and need to be in front of equipment. These reflections could be less problematic as apposed to a 12' offset short wall.  Placing panels on stand up footers in front of the first reflection add door each time I do a listening session could work.

It might make sense to move the racks to the opposite long wall and possibly add the other record cabinet back on the front wall.

I haven’t given up and I really appreciate everyone’s comments

thank you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84Pf0ycbyBM&list=PLA69AF2D5CFB3955D&index=83

this looks interesting

Bob Robbins of   MySpeakerSetUp.com

use the long wall - effectively no boundaries

able to get imaging well  beyond the speakers

this was dialed in at my house

off the wall and toe in - work speakers in tandem

set positioning  to the sound in the room not the tape measure

rake - raise to the minimum amount where the musicians rise up and the sound opens up/ equal via laser

I did get much better sound that way - just didn't like dealing with only 14.5 room depth

will try a few more short wall experiments

haven't really utilized rake before.

I do have a partition or cabinet I can put in that area where the closet was. It did have a bass trap in the corner on the backside of the closet.  I now have the treated but a more direct path to the doorway to the next room. With the closet and the front wall in place that width was only 9.5 ft wide. not ideal.

The sound is much more opened up now.

thanks Mike

That was one of my next steps

(but I won't be moving any racks initially)

My room is narrower at 12' at the shortest end

14.5 in the middle and 27ft long

There would be a doorway right behind the couch