SUT - electrical theory and practical experience

Dear @o_holter  : I think your PS is high gain active unit then why a SUT?

 

R.

@intactaudio  : Technics THD is 0.001% and noise level below -95db.

 

.

Dear @holmz  : "" The voltage input design produced has very precise gain, extremely precise RIAA compliance and unmeasurably low distortion. ""

 

That is the critical and must important issue/characteristic for me about current/voltage subject.

 

That statement is not only " imagination " of Palmer but he took the comparison measures and as always he did it in REAL TIME thank's that he have several of the computer AD modeling/simulation along the ones he developed and I know he did that kind of job and statement because in a very hot discussion here ( 3-4 years ago ) he showed inmediatly the measurements, one after the other.

 

Audiophiles can like whatever they like but with UNMEASURABLE low distortions: who cares about, ceratinly not me.

 

R.

Dearb @intactaudio  : Thank's. I know all those and certainly about capacitance but my post was because the measures in the vinatge SUT's was not with 300k-500k and I found out measured at 47k and 180pf.

 

That's all.

 

@mulveling  , yes shorter cable is better but normally audiophiles use 1m. because is the " rule " by cable manufacturers and in the other side many times the owners need that 1m. for its system SUT place/phono stage.

 

R.

Btw, @intactaudio  : you capacitance parameter of 80pf coukld be not real to make SUT measurements as the 300k load.

Normally what sees the MM stage + SUT is a load of 47k and capacitance around 200pf. Then measures arwe different that with your " choosed " parameters.

Unfortuntaelly cable manafucterer almost never gives the cable capacitance but almost all are higher than 150pf and even over 200pf.

 

R.

I think you do not re-read carefully that Palmer/holmz posts.

 

Anyway, I think is enough for that.

 

R.

Dear @drbond  : I think that if some one as me and maybe you re-read the Palmer  explanation where @holmz  added several technical characteristics maybe you can be less " worried " about.

 

The amps explanation linkes is wider and as I said holmz expanded on it. Now, do you think that Palmer does not knowed all the theory behind about? , I'm totally sure that he knows but not only that he laborated with for over 20 years.

 

Now, maybe you have a " hide card " or you have a specific target behind your links. Good, but if you have dudes just contact that gentleman or even better and invite him to share other kind of technical explanations on the issue. Don't you think could be better?

 

R.

Dear @holmz  : I was in a hurry when my post to op but I gone thinking that's the whole context what is behind what Palmer posted.  He participated in that technical loading thread that after some posts took other road.

 

I can't remember but I think that in other threads you and he had a very interesting technically posts.

 

R.

You can go to this link and there to marketplace feedback and that's it:

 

R.

 

Dear @drbond  : Then you can ask him directly, here is his post:

 

R.

Dear @intactaudio : Appreciated. I think you know the critical importance of that FR RIAA deviations .

I’m way demanding here more than in other audio electronic issues, my unit measured 0.012 and in both channel measure chart you can’t identify the left from the rigth channel, so not only extremely precise but both channels mimic in between and no it’s not digital design but analog one with out inductors. Additional in my unit you can switch on/off for the Neumann pole.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @mulveling  : For a LOMC cartridge in high gain nactive designs the device that conforms better electrically to MC cartridges are bipolars no JFET. So why almost all that kind of AHG designs use JFET? because bipolars are a " pain " to " handled " in that stage JFET is very easy on the design and is very good in dedicated MM stages.

 

No, transimpedance is not the way. Good current or voñltage designs makes excellent job. You have to think that in the last 40 years 99% of phono stages including the top ones are voltage designs with no compliants about and you don't need to care that the cartridge for a current unit needs to be very low internal impedance.

 

Time ago wpalmer that has true high knowledge levels in electronics due that he laborated for several years in Analog Devises as designer and group leader and posted this about:

 

" 

I'm in the process of having a phono preamp made manufacturable by a well known audio company. The first thing they insisted upon was that the design would be implemented in SMD- purely for manufacturing purposes. This had it's own unique set of difficulties- for example, some of my preferred capacitors were not available on SMD, so a search for suitable items of a different technology (ceramic MLCC C0G vs Polypropylene film) was needed, together with a proof that the distortion characteristics were essentially equivalent.

The other aspect was that the preamp design investigated two possible implementations, either a voltage mode input, or a current mode input, and with the 75uS RIAA TC implemented in the first stage.

I ended up with a voltage mode input, as when designed for equivalent gain and RIAA characteristic there is, generally, no measurable or audible difference.

However, there are indeed differences in operation and implementation.

To put this somewhat in context, I designed a number of "transimpedance" amps while at ADI, most notably the AD846, together with a number of conventional opamps, so I am familiar with the concepts. The AD846 was designed to have almost perfect current conveyance properties and could be operated open loop as a transimpedance amplifier. Most opamps/amplifiers use negative feedback to achieve this goal, or have high distortion levels if operated open loop.

As I don't want to make this into a "white paper" I'll try to be brief.

1. A phono cartridge is a voltage generator (Vs) with an output impedance which is mostly a resistance in series with an inductance (R+Ls). This can be converted into the Thevenin equivalent current source- which is a scaled current (Vs/(R+Ls)) with the output impedance in parallel to ground.

If you take this current and drive it into a virtual ground, which shorts out the shunt components, and convey it to the load resistance (Rl) then the output voltage is Vs*Rl/(R+Ls). If Ls is small then the gain is completely dependent on the series resistance of the cartridge and will vary from cartridge to cartridge, and if LS is large there will be a HF roll off.

Any shunt capacitance will be essentially ignored.

If there is a resistor added in series with the virtual ground, then the current is shared between the equivalent shunt components and the series R, and the gain becomes even more variable.

Voltage mode lacks this complexity. Provided the load impedance is relatively large compared to R the gain is easy to determine.

However, the shunt capacitance is not ignored, but for MC cartridges the inductor is so small that all parasitic capacitance values are irrelevant, assuming the load R is small enough to damp out the LC resonance. 

Current mode does not experience this resonance, but correct loading Rs plus a phono stage with a suitably good ultrasonic overload margin will take care of the potential problem.

MM cartridges into a virtual ground are not rational unless there is a very large resistor in series with the virtual ground. This is because the R is large but L is even larger.

 

2. In voltage mode the input stage is non-inverting and will experience potentially substantial deviations about ground. For many opamps, particularly earlier generations than the most recent ones, this voltage will cause increases in distortion due to the operating conditions of the input transistors being changed. 

This distortion can be highly sensitive to the source impedance and the input signal level.

In the transresistance mode the virtual ground does not move, removing this source of distortion.

Modern audio IC opamps are generally designed with this problem in mind and exhibit negligible changes in distortion when operated in non-inverting mode.

These are the two main aspects of current versus voltage mode inputs.

There are other, more obscure, aspects.

I chose voltage mode, but also chose appropriate opamps to minimize the down side of the choice.

The bottom line is, when properly designed both current and voltage input designs can have equivalent performance from the perspective of distortion, frequency response etc.- but the voltage input design is more predictable and easier to specify. 

The voltage input design produced has very precise gain, extremely precise RIAA compliance and unmeasurably low distortion.  ""

 

From the last 2 years exist a " fever " for the current designs and obviously that the customers with unit that handled in both versions prefer teh current one and I understand it because they bougth that phono stage for the current design. For me is only a today fashion.

 

R.

 

MK2 is even better than the one reviewed.

Dear @mulveling  : SutherlaND 20/20 mk2 IS A VERY GOOD ss PHONO STAGE DESIGN ( LIKE THE pS aUDIO sTELLAR. ) AN YES BEEN an active high gain design just outperforms I think almost any SUT.

 

Here a review from 2011 and read it and please read carefully its measurements including the overload numbers and this Sutherland humble price tag as the PS Audio Stellar always be a challenge for any other phono stage surrounded by a good system:

 

 

 

R.

 

 

Dear @drbond : About quality level performance in SUTs the best regarded/build transformers are: the Hashimoto 7, the Altec 4722 and Tamura TKS83. Lundhall or Jensen are in a lower " league ".

Altec and Tamura are not in production any more, at least to my knowledge. Btw, the gentleaman behind HM-7 is Isao Asakura.

Denon choosed a special custom design Tamura transformers for the AU-1000 ( Denon use the standard Tamura in its AU-340 that I own too and modified too. ) and here what a true music lover and SUT expert said about ( he already tested the Lundhall, Jensen and others. ):

 

" HM-7 sound falls somewhere in between the organically detailed and dynamic TKS83 and the rich and spacious airiness of the classic 4722. "

No one of then are transformers silver wired but are the best of the best in SUTs.

 

Btw, the AU-1000 Tamura transformers are better than the others I named here. The Tamura in the AU-340 is the one reffered by that gentleman full comparisons.

 

R.

"" The concern IMO isn't the high end! its how well it goes low. ""

 

with the rigth MM stage design way better that any tube phono stage. You have to listen any of the SUTs I named here.

 

I forgot that I owned the Supex and left it goes due that in those times my knowledge levels were still lower than today. Shame of me for that.

 

R.

I still own the case too.

Here the DL 1000A ( btw, one of the J.Carr vintage cartridge favorities. ):

 

Main features of DL-1000A

■ We challenged the limits of weight reduction and achieved an astounding effective mass of 0.077mg.

The vibration system of the DL-1000A faithfully traces the complex and fine sound grooves, so a new material, New Amorphous Boron Pipe, is used to thoroughly reduce the weight of the vibration system, resulting in an effective mass of 0.077mg. realized. (DL-305 is 0.168mg) In
addition, coupled with light effective mass and well-balanced high compliance, extremely stable tracing is performed not only in the mid-low range, but also in the fine sound grooves in the high range. It is extremely rare to deform the sound groove. As a result, the playback band extends to an unprecedented ultra-wide band of 20Hz to 110kHz.

(1) High rigidity, ultra-thin and lightweight new amorphous boron pipe cantilever

DL-305 and DL-207 use amorphous boron, which is said to be the most ideal cantilever material and has a large specific rigidity. A cantilever with a thickness of 0.3 mm, a thickness of 0.023 mm, and a length of 4 mm is used.

(2) World's smallest micro stylus chip

Reducing the weight of the stylus tip, which is positioned at the forefront, has a great effect when reducing the effective mass seen from the tip of the stylus. It was considered very difficult to make a stylus chip micro, but we have improved our processing technology and accuracy to create a 0.06 mm square micro chip. (Approximately 1/2 of DL-303/305) The
shape is a special elliptical needle that has been precision machined.

(3) Uses a small cross-shaped winding frame and extra-fine copper wire

The cross-shaped winding frame can reduce the mass, and the left and right channel generating coils can be wound independently and symmetrically, and the dynamic balance during vibration is good, the sensitivity difference between the left and right channels is small, and uniform characteristics can be obtained. has two major advantages. The well-balanced generator coil uses ultra-fine copper wire, which advances the significant weight reduction of the vibration system.

(4) Like a feather. Stable tracing with record-friendly stylus pressure of 0.8g

The dramatic reduction in effective mass enables well-balanced, high-compliance, and a light stylus force of 0.8g shows sufficient tracing ability, providing stable tracing even for high-level cutting records. We will realize

(5) Flat ultra-wideband reproduction by 2-way damping system

In addition to broadening the bandwidth by reducing the effective mass, coupled with the adoption of DENON's original 2-way damper, flat frequency characteristics up to 110 kHz are realized, and reproduced sound with good energy balance can be obtained.
In addition, good temperature characteristics (small difference in sound quality between cold and warm regions) is another feature of 2-way damping that cannot be overlooked.

■ Powerful power generation structure

A samarium-cobalt magnet (with a magnetic energy product several times that of conventional magnets) is used in order to obtain a compact, lightweight, and strong air-gap magnetic field.
The weight of the cartridge has been reduced to 6g, but reducing the weight of the cartridge has the effect of reducing the effective mass seen from the position of the stylus of the tonearm, and the ability to follow the warp and eccentricity of the record. have a great effect on increasing

■ Emphasis on stylus pressure vs. output voltage characteristics

DENON attaches great importance to stylus pressure vs. output voltage characteristics as one of its basic performances.
The vibration system of the cartridge receives extra changes due to warpage of the record, etc., and the stylus pressure constantly changes. For this reason, if the linearity of the power generation system is poor, the output voltage will fluctuate greatly or be modulated, making it impossible to obtain a clear reproduced sound.
The DL-1000A has excellent linearity in the power generation system, and in combination with its excellent tracing ability, you can always obtain high fidelity and stable reproduced sound.

■ Promoting non-resonance with a strong frame structure

In order to fully demonstrate the performance of the excellent vibration system, we have adopted a strong frame structure that is non-resonant.
The frame, including the powerful magnetic circuit and output terminals, is made of hard resin containing glass fibers and a machined light alloy base.

---

To amazing tracing ability
World's lightest - effective mass 0.077mg

The effective mass of the vibration system, which has been thoroughly refined and polished, has achieved the lightest weight of all cartridges, 0.077mg. At the same time, the world's largest dynamic compliance of 20 x 10-6 (static 50 x 10-6) cm/dyne is achieved. I just got amazing tracing ability. With this new dimension of tracing ability, you can reach the musical depths of record grooves that you could not reach before, and draw out all the musical information that could not be reproduced in the past.

■ Comparison of sound groove traces

■ DL-1000A output voltage and crosstalk versus frequency characteristics

■ Comparison of frequency characteristics due to temperature change

■ Cartridge case can be used as a cartridge keeper

The DL-1000A is delivered in a velvet-covered case. This case can store 5 cartridges with shells.
The stand on which the DL-1000A is installed can be used as an audio stabilizer after removing the cartridge.

---

DL-1000A major specifications

• Power generation method: Moving coil type
• Output voltage: 0.1mV (1kHz 5cm/sec horizontal direction)
• Left and right sensitivity difference: within 1dB (1kHz)
• Right and left separation: 30dB or more (1kHz)
• Electrical impedance: 33Ω (20kHz or less)
• Compliance:
  Record reading 20×10-6cm/dyne (100Hz)
  Static reading 50×10-6cm/dyne
• Transducer effective mass: 0.077mg
• Needle tip: 0.06 mm square solid diamond special elliptical needle
• Stylus force: 0.8g±0.1g
• Reproduction frequency range: 20Hz - 110kHz
• Compatible load resistance: 100Ω or more (40Ω when using a transformer)
• Weight: 6.0g  and is an exeptional tracker with its very high compliance over 30cu.
•  

Dear @lewm  : This is  the Denon design explanation, it's interesting to read it by any one:

 

""" 

 DENON has already released the DL-1000A, the highest grade cartridge, but in order to fully demonstrate the outstanding music playback capabilities of this DL-1000A, we have developed the AU-1000 as the highest model of step-up transformer. I did.
In order to boost the minute music signals sent from the cartridge, physical characteristics such as frequency characteristics were pursued, and countermeasures against external induction, i.e., strict shielding of the transformer unit and main unit, anti-vibration structure, connection cords, etc., were thoroughly examined in detail. and improved the degree of perfection.
In addition, in terms of sound quality, we have repeated sufficient listening tests to create a product worthy of the name of "the highest peak of step-up transformers."

---

Features

1. Basic design born from thorough pursuit of sound quality.

For the transformer core, under strict material management, special-shaped large permalloy thin plates that pass strict specifications are laminated . Magnetic permeability, which is the basis of transformer quality, is about 1.5 times higher than conventional products (compared to our company) in the bass range, and achieves high saturation magnetic flux density over the entire .
A special split sandwich winding reduces the line-to-line capacity and extends the high range. In addition, a primary winding that is about 1.4 times thicker than conventional products (compared to our company ) is used to reduce resistance loss. Combined with the high saturation magnetic flux density, the dynamic range is wide, realizing a rich sound reproduction .

2. Thorough pursuit of sound quality with a simple structure.

Since it is dedicated to the MC cartridge DL-1000A, the impedance selector switch and intermediate taps have all been eliminated, and the structure to improve sound quality.

3. Multi-shield structure that is resistant to externally induced vibration noise.

A single transformer is double-shielded with a permalloy shield case, put in a thick gunmetal case, and fixed with a filler. Also, since the LR channels are wired independently in separate gunmetal cases, there is no crossover of wiring. Furthermore , the entire body, including the input/output pin jacks, is covered with a thick casting shield case and can be used as a high-grade universal transformer.

 

I owned that maybe the best Denon cartridge ever and when I bougth the cartridge in Laredo, TX I did not know about the Denon SUT.

 

R..

Dear @lewm  : " you would say ? " ( already those limits in dbs. )

Look, the main SUT limtation vs an active high gain SS alternative is its way limited  frequency bandwidth and I don't really car to much of the other parameters but you talk with out own a SUT and it's your rigth to do it.

Silver wired SUT does not makes a huge difference in that main SUT characteristic and only could helps for a better quality sound level.

Now, after 41 years what is really NEW in today SUTs ( any ) vs the vintage ones?

I don't know you or other audiophiles and even manufacturers but for me NOTHING at all changed even no one today SUT and even with dedicated parameters for an specific  cartridge can outperform the vintage bandwindth spec and not only at high frequency but more important at the other frequency extreme: in the low bass where in those vintage SUTs are not one but some that starts at 3hz-5hz.

Now, SUTs are for the huge mediocrity of phono stages designs and very especial with tube, not only in tubes because exist that mediocrity in some SS designs too.

The only SUT dedicated to an specific cartridge that I listened/owned for several years was the Audio Technica AT 1000T that came with not 2 but four transformers where two of them were dedicated exclusive to the great AT 1000 LOMC ( o.1mv. ), no it was not silver wired and no it was not hand wound wired because with transformers nothing can have the precision need it to the transformer wound wire as an specific tool/machine ( hand made on this device are for ignorant or stupid gentlemans. ). That AT SDUT really good and if I remember weigths around 10kg.

I think that the only silver wired SUT I experienced was the Kondo that can't ( for me ) justify its truly expensive price tag against ist quality level performance, my Denon is way superior and is not silver wired.

My modified Denon AU-1000 beats my active high gain stage? certainly not but is close to it due that my phonolinepreamp has a dedicated dual mono MM stage with no bipolars devices as the MC stage but what a MM needs and for several years is running the MM stage with 100khz instead 47k and with out input resistor.

Rigth now I'm using this MM stage along the Denon because I'm doing some modifications in the MC stage and at the same time I'm fine tunning the Denon SUT.

 

R.

Dear @intactaudio  : I'm not saying that the SUT FR is the only parameter to buy a SUT but always can gives us an " idea " of its quality and yes there are other parameters.

 

Now, the Technics measure was:  3hz-300khz +,- 0.4db, the Supex 5hz-170khz -0.5db

Denon response as you stated with this parameters: primary impedance 30 ohms, secondary 4kohmz and load 50kohm. Mine is loaded at 100k and 200k but never measured with those load resistance ( 100k by default and can't remember capacitance. ).  Who knows under your specific conditions or mated in specific to the electrical cartridge characteristics.

My take is that all those vintage SUTs even that does not been silver wired are all fenomenal to say the least and came between 1981 to 1984. I don't know you but my " hat off " about.

Your information appreciated.

 

Now, I know that you already read the thread where Mike Lavigne and me had a pretty hot dialogue in other thread where I was high " surprised " that instead to runs the LOMC cartridge directly in his Dartzeel he was/is really happy sending that signal to several additional steps before the Dartzeel line input and other than your SUT one of those steps is your " phono corrector " and I distubed him asking for the FR RIAA deviation of your unit because I just can't found out any where but now that we are talking of your SUT design and others SUTs I should be sure you have that RIAA deviation already measured and maybe you can share with us and your customers.

 

Thank's in advance,

R.

intac, btw maybe you think the same over 100khz.

 

Each one of us have our self way of thinking.

 

You said in your site:

 

" The transformers are wound on massive.."

and the " Shipping weight - 11 lbs. [5 kg] "

 

Well Denon net weigth ( not shipping. ) is  12kg and 8kg for the vintage AT 1000T. Those are really massive.

 

But as I posted , no one cares about or just does not the knowledge levels for.

 

R.

As I said, your lines only bs.

 

Your frustration is so high ! ! 

 

R.

Dear @intactaudio : The " trouble " is that you mate the owner cartridge to the SUT, so your SUT units are not " universal " and that’s something normally we are not accustom too but even that and through those sample measurements I can’t seen in any a condition where your SUT goes flat from 10hz to 200khz as Denon or 3hz to 300khz as Technics or 5hz to 170khz as Supex or today At that goes 10hz to 200khz at 3ohms.

Btw, you posted:

" When considering phono playback, nothing of value exists below 20hz. "

Really?, now I understand why those measured graphs by you.

 

@karl_desch Perhaps your friend runs tubes down there but if your 27 is noth good enough then is time for you can think to change it for the EMIA, could be a good alternative.

 

R.

Dear @karl_desch  Your XP27 is very good design and something that made the differences on what you listened vs the SUT came for the XP27 bass range that not only gives you that depth in soundstage.

I think no SUT can touch the overall bass range management by a good active high gain SS design and one with the niquel core less.

I read this comments from a XP27 owner:

 

 

" XP27:
1. Lower noise
2. Lower distortion
3. Deeper bass, more articulate bass, less fat, more impact/punch
4. Better transient attack, fine, more precise leading edge
5. Cleaner, clearer sound, more resolution
6. Deeper stage, better hall information
7.  dynamic, explosive

After dinner, I played the Sheffield Drum Track. Wow. It was explosive and loud with very little distortion. There was incredible nuance between the different types of drums and it had huge impact and dynamics. The different drum characteristics and his technique has never been more discernible.

I am still listening with the Burley Wire IC because it sounds so good, but I plan to send my Transparent Audio cable back for recalibration to see if it will sound even better. The XP-27 has continued to improve over time. It seems that the complete break in period was about ten days. I have now had it in my system for sixteen days, powered on the whole time.

Since Al heard it on the fifth day, the resolution has continued to improve. Low level information is even more clear. Micro and macro dynamics are better. The soundstage is about the same, but the depth has increased. Presence, an attribute of my system about which I am very pleased, is even more pronounced. I have not heard this level of 3-D palpability before. Timbral accuracy has never sounded more real in my system. The overall impression is one of improved clarity and a more natural sound. Everything just sounds more real to me. """"

Btw, could be interesting that your friends can ask to EMIA its measured FR due that even that exist audiophiles that just do not care about that kind of measure is really of critical importance and the manufacturer just " dead silence about " and I wonder why because other SUT manufacturers gives that kind of measure.

 

R.

Dear @holmz  : As always thank's for your post:

 

R.

Maybe I'm a little " stupid " and don't understand your way of thinking or what you are looking at and I said that because you are thinking to in the time add a SUT to the CH and what do you need to add that SUT?:

 

well obviuosly the SUT and an IC cable and what does that means?

that the valuable and way sensitive cartridge audio signal not muts pass through a pair of additional SUT input connectors that degrades that signal as does too the solder joints and from there the audio signal will continue hislong tortuose path through the " hundreds " meters of transformers wires that react to the cartridge signal and that follows the degradatio  but this is not the end because the signal now must pass for other pairs of SUT output connectors and solder joints along the IC cables. Why all those long totuose path against your today DIRECT cartridge audio signal path? Makes sense to you? if yes, then  go a head. No problem with me.

Btw, seven months ago I told you yhat you have a " problem " with your 90K monobloks and your " passive " line preamp. Even I gave you the whole Atkinson explanation on your amps and why he just did not recomended it and Atkinson is a trusty and unbiased reviewer that for years owned tube/sut electronics and analog but after around 10 years latter he switched to SS and no SUT electronics and for very good reasons , latter on he switched to digital alternative and no more analog but he is not only an audio unit reviewer but a recording engennering too and for the last 20+ years he made and makes audio devices measurements with very good tools for that in deep job and he always explains those measurements and wht means. You need to read again my 7 months ago post.

 

I remember you was looking for a phono stage in the 50k-70k price tag my advise was for: Dartzeel, Boulder, FMA, SimsAudio and some one gave you the advise for CH and you decided for CH.

 

For me is clear that you are not " satisfied " with what you are listened and you are thinking that a SUT can " enhance " your experienc but no SUT or other similar device can enhance nothing but the other way aroun: can degrade the audio signal including SS units the important issue is which device makes the minimum audio signal degradation everything the same and certainly SUT is not that device.

 

Btw, if " passive " units as your line preamp be in true better alternative then 90% of electronics been " passive " but things are that things are the other way around.

In the other side when a designer decides to use a SUT instead of an active high gain stages it’s not because SUT is better ( because it’s not in true. ) but because that designer has not the knowledge adequated levels and skills to design with out SUT and not for other reason.

Here a second Stellar review that confirms its " stellar " quality levels and confirms Atkinson measurements and in the picture you can see a really audio signal short path and the SMD full parts evrywhere, it’s not at random that the Stellar performs with that very high quality levels and as I told you with no SUT:

 

 

 

 

Btw, what atmasphere posted was theory that today it just does not happens and all that that you can use balance cable connectuion to the phono stage because th SUT is bs becase I think is what you do with your balnced CH unit.

 

Try to that some one browse you ( even if you pay for it ) the JC 1+ and a non-passive line preamp. Which the problem with? if you don't like then you confirm that what you own is the rigth road to go but if not then you could learn " something " about to fine tunning your room/system.I think that you need a different line preamp and amps and that’s it.

 

R. Sorry, when I was writing this post you just posted yours. So, forgeret my post.

Dear @drbond : In april of this year you started a more or less similar tread where all was explained about SUT and the like but obviously as in this thread too you have not a 100% understand of the whole subject.

 

Now, you decided to buy the CH phono stage with the " additional " power supply so what’s all about SUTs? Maybe you need tomatch the CH to a different amp. You diminished the JC 1+ maybe by its very low price, you will be surprised if you listen to it in the same way that Fremer/Atkinson were with the humble Stellar SS phono stage.

 

Could you explain a little? maybe you are thinking to change your CH fora SUT road?. I don’t know something makes no sense down there. You own the Lyra Atlas why not ask J.Carr if he prefers a SUT or an active high gain S phono stage?

 

 

""

but under near ideal circumstances, both would sound nearly identical.

Are there any inherent weaknesses in a SUT versus a transistor, or vice versa? ""

 

In your other thread and in this thread me and other gentlemans let very clear the differences with an additional disadvantage with SUT due that you need additional connectors and cables for that external SUT. You need to use your common sense too.

 

An about all that theory of the RFI is only that and happened 20-30 years ago but that mediocrity SS designs almost disappeared and I say " almost " because always are bad designs. Today designers learned. Bandwindth? your CH has an over 500 khz of bandwidth and the Channel D over 2 Mhz, Spectral over 1.5 Mhz , my Essential 3180 over 1.5 Mhz with no trouble at all.

 

Please read the M.Fremer Stellar 2,5K active high gain SS phono stage and additional read its measurements where J.Atkinson really was surprised by it RIAA accuracy that at least even the CH one and not only that but its very low noise levels and its incredible overload marginn at 30dbs in low gain and almost 20dbs in high gain position and you have all those for only 2.5K and makes MUSIC comparable to the Dartzeel that set you back 20 times over the Stellar price tag. Fremer listened using the SAT tonearm in continnum TT and the Ortofon Ana Diamond. Can you look in that review any SUT? why not?

 

COMMON SENSE, it does not need it due to its higher signal degradation.

R.

 

 

Dear @billstevenson  :  Please don't laugh and read again ( if you are refering to my post. ).

 

 

"" First any device where the signal must pass degrades the sound quality, "

 

"pass only trhough a matched pair of transistors in that first critical gain stage and degradation is at minimum way lower that in a SUT"

 

R.

Good for you, no problem.

R.

Dear @mulveling : " I’ve found a good SUT will be quieter than a good JFET stage "

 

Only true reason for that is that your JFET unit is a mediocre overall design.

 

Btw, "" rich, meaty, weighty. ""

 

typical " audiophile/tube " adjectives that means nothing about MUSIC, specially live MUSIC seated at near field position that’s where the recording microphones are positioned. Your statement means that you like sound full of developed COLORATIONS/DISTORTIONS.

 

R.

 

R.

Dear @drbond  : " Does the SUT theoretically enhance or degrade the sound quality?  What does the SUT actually do to the sound quality?  "

 

First any device where the signal must pass degrades the sound quality, so the SUT degrades the signal quality and there is no way no matters what that that SUT could enhance the audio signal.

Today SUT's exist because there are tubes phono stages and even that exist 2-3 all tube high gain active units those are not the best solution for LOMC cartridges.

 

A SUT is not a passive device because any audio signal passing trhough those transformers makes that the " hundreds " of meters on each transformer react to that signal and starts the degradation and you have to think that the signal has a " long trip " inside each transformer wires and at each mm. the audio signal is degrading by that SUT. 

 

In the other side a good SS active high gain design say ith bipolar  active devices the signal must pass only trhough a matched pair of transistors in that first critical gain stage and degradation is at minimum way lower that in a SUT.

Advantage of a SUT: NONE. SUT develops or could be contaminated with some kind of " noise/colorations " and yes its frequency response is way limited and not only that: everything the same the badwindth, noise levels, THD, deeper bass, etc, etc belongs to the SS active high gain.

 

You can ask for measured frequency response and the like to any today builder to confim all what I mentioned.

I owned and still own SUTs and the only one that I listen time to time is the Denon 

AU-1000 modified by me where that SUT only sees a connector when in the MM phono stage. This Denon measured FR is: 5hz to 200khz, that's exceptional for any SUT and I admit that my modified unit puts the level degradation ower that any other SUT I experienced but not even my SS Essential 3180 phonolinepreamp.

There are several SS active high gain phono stages and normally are expensive ones as FM Acoustics or CH or the Channel D Seta L20 but exist very low price as 2.5K only SS units that makes a formidable job. Here one of those unit reviewed by MF and compared against Dartzeel and other way $$$$$ phono stages:

 

 

Today top LOMC cartridges are really expensive and makes no sense at at all try to been mated with a SUT that as I said and no matter what will degrades that valuable cartridge signal.

For me that I'm a MUSIC lover the only  path is a SS active high gain phono stage but only an opinion.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC,

R.