Thanks Aroc! Also... Ecclectique & Fiddler have added a great deal of tube info too. Actually... LOTS of people have added great tube info to that thread. It's so rich with good information.
In my Cortese, I use:
Regulator: Western Electric 350B
Rectifier: Bendix 6106
Line: Mullard CV181 / ECC32 (kinda like a 6SN7 but doesn't always work in Syrah pre's - not the very best sounding tube, but quite close. I use mostly because it is awesome looking! :) Similar sound to the Tung Sol Round Plate...
Phono: Mullard E180F - Telefunken CCa
Best 6SN7 Tubes:
Tung Sol Round Plate (6SN7GT/VT231)
Ken Rad Black Glass *note three different sound types
> Marked NAVY - these are the most open sounding
> Marked VT231 - These are the most "neutral"
> Marked 6SN7GT (no other markings) these are "dark"
* in general the Black Glass Ken Rad is the most romantic, richest sounding tube in this preamp. The three "grades" mentioned above are all within the romantic spectrum.
Raytheon VT231
Sylvania 6SN7W Metal Base
No doubt the best rectifier is a WELL BROKEN IN Bendix 6106. This rectifer sounds terrible when new - weird. I don't know how long it takes to start sounding good but I am guessing many. Be patient, it will get good. For those who had tried and gave up, keep on trying. Let that sucker bake! To break in, I disconnected my line stage from the power supply - plugged in some cheap regulator tubes and let the powersupply run.. day and night for a week or more.
The Mullard rectifiers (GZ34, GZ37, GZ33, GZ32) are popular but warmer, less impact, more muddy sounding tubes (sorry).
Various 5V4G tubes produce a broad range of neat sounds. Fun to try because most are cheap.
Regulators.
350B is the best - hands down.
6F6G is reported to be good (i've never used)
Sylvania 5932 (three types)
> Dual Black Plate - nice sounding tubes
> Gray Plate with holes
> Gray Plate no holes (super neutral sounding to the point of boredom but man.. these make the preamp sound tonally accurate)
KT66 MO Valve (GEC,Genalex,etc) Nice sweet sound.. Involving but these have to be used with a Mullard rectifier.
Tung Sol 5881 a good starter tube but you will quickly outgrow it. |
Whoopadeedoo. The differences in sound are dramatic. I am not the only person who has heard the differences. If you have a the three sets (6SN7, VT-231, and NAVY versions) give each a listen and if you cannot hear a difference, I'd be quite surprised. It doesn't take any particular or special "auditory acuity" to hear.
I didn't want to get into it but your descriptions and sonic impressions of the other tubes (350B, 6F6G, KT66, Metal Base GZ34 and particularly the CV181) leave me puzzled too. |
Sorlowski - give the Bendix a try. It is a somewhat inexpensive tube too.
The WE350B's are not exactly warm on their own but when paired with the GZ tubes, they can be...
The Early(1950's) RCA 5V4G (ST Shaped - black base) tubes are a more open sounding rectifiers. I think these are available NOS for under 35 bucks.
I think the GZ34's (as well as most other Mullard GZ tubes) are too muddy sounding. While the Metal base GZ34 is one of the best rectifier choices it pales in comparison to the Bendix.
Now.. when I first got the Bendix, I hated it. It did something strange to the pace of the music - everything seemed awkward. I think others who tried the Bendix at about that time had similar experiences. Once I burned in the Bendix though, everything came into focus. The Bendix is on the warmer side of neutral but the bass is tight, detail is there, the dimensionality increases substantially. Pace is correct. Its a great tube.
Like I said above. Burn in the Bendix. Just disconnect the power supply from the line stage, insert the Bendix and let it cook for a week or more. Every day or so, give it a listen and eventually it will outperform anything else and stop sounding weird.
Another good thing about the Bendix is that it's a slow starting tube and does not stress out the other tubes when it heats up. Some of the Mullard GZ's start fast and in some cases blow fuses on Supratek's. This stresses out the other tubes and shortens their lifespan.
The Ken Rads are good tubes - very organic -rich and warm. Changing these with Raytheon VT231 or Tung Sol Rounds will add more transparency & detail but you will lose some of the midrange magic, weight and round-ness you like with the Ken Rads.
Another possibility is the RCA 5692 red base tubes. I really wanted to like these tubes because they do many things well but for my system I felt they were too detailed and I personaly loved the warmth of the Ken Rads / sweetness of the Tung Sols. If the rest of your system is warm sounding, the 5692's might work for you. Great bass, good detail and dimensionality.. just not "luxurious" or romantic. |
Aloha Fiddler! Thanks for the invitation - It would be great to meet you and see your show but unfortunately, we've got all our activities booked out and will be unable to get to Maui on this trip. Perhaps next time - which may be in the next few months....my wife wants to move here. |
Amandarae - that's a bummer! I wonder what changed in the Chenin power supply that makes the Bendix 6106 not work. Well.. the people with Cortese's are lucky.. you can use the Bendix 6106 and the Mullard CV181's Two great tubes which do not seem to work in the other Supratek's. Actually maybe the CV181's work in the Chenin - I know they do not work in the Syrah. |
Sorlowski - Amandarae stated above that the Bendix does not work for the Chenin so... if I were you, I'd take his word for it. The Bendix appears to only work on the Cortese, Syrah and Chardonnay. You might ask Mick to get confirmation.
I think all Bendix tubes are "Red Bank" |
Aloha Fiddler, that's great! So I'm not crazy after all? :) Hey.... I'm in Kauai right now... and I can almost hear how awesome your system sounds from here! |
Whoopadeedoo - as a tube dealer, I am surprised you don't know that especially with military spec tubes, printing means something. And yes. There are three distinct "flavors" of Ken Rad Black Glass tubes. In vintage non-military spec tubes, parts & materials can vary tremendously. Differences in tubes are audible even by month of manufacturer in some cases.
What kind of a Supratek do you have? |
Hi Whoopadeedoo - I really don't want to argue about it so... I'll take your word for it, printing means nothing, the construction is the same, and they all sound the same and we'll leave it at that.
How many KR's have I owned? I don't remember exactly but I have owned many. As I am sure you know, the ratio of good "pre-amp" quality 6SN7's (low microphonics / quiet) to not-so-good is relatively slim. Depending on the tube manufacturer/type/vintage, its often very difficult to find a nice vintage 6SN7 which is adequate for use in a line stage...Particularly the Supratek which is quite sensitive to tube quality. Having said that, for several years, I purchased numerous KR Black Glass tubes from various sources and maybe, at best, 1 in 10 tubes were quiet enough (no squeeks, no microphonics, no crackle) to even be considered as usable. Of the KR tubes I purchased during that time span, I kept about 20 (10 pair).
Also during that time, I was cycling through various amplifiers, cables and digital components. I discovered that I could "tune" my system with the various "flavors" of the KR black glass tubes. Initiallly I didn't know they were sonically different but after swaping back and forth tubes and matching with various components, I soon realized that they were all similar but very different. Certain marked Ken Rads were totally unusable with certain component combinations while other KR's were seemingly perfect.
Using the KR's in a line stage preamp produces a much different effect than in an amplifier. So for those people who use these tubes in amps and hope to obtain various sonic results, I don't know what to say because I would expect the results to be much more subtle and possibly less noticable in that application. It is when the tubes are used in a line stage - particularly the Supratek - that the difference in sound is obvious.
The 6SN7GT marked Ken Rads are noticably dark, and rolled off. The VT231 marked tubes are the most even/neutral of the bunch, the NAVY tubes are far more extended in the highs than the other types...but still maintain the KR signature.
Well.. your descriptions of the other tubes when used in a Supratek are weird, particularly the CV181 description. I know that CV181's do not work in Chardonnay and Syrah preamps (for whatever reason).
The "midrange" on a 350B is more-or-less quite neutral. In fact, the 350B is oddly one of the least "involving" or romantic sounding tubes available when used as a regulator in the Supratek. Where it stands out and what makes it the best, is what seems to be the most brute force and blatant accuracy of all regulator tubes. Which may be why they do not float your boat -as you put it. You state you like what they did to the midrange and that makes me a bit curious as to what else is going on in your system that you'd identify the 350B as having a particular midrange quality (vs. everything else) in your system that was good.
The 350B really comes into its own when used with a Bendix 6106. |
Hi Guys.. Also I think that www.tubeworld.com has the Bendix 6106 available new in box. |
Jazzdude, thanks for the post. Great feedback on the rectifier tubes. Keep that 6106 burning. I am not sure how long it takes to fully break in but once it does, its pretty amazing. However...it does not work well with all regulator tubes. I have not used the 6F6G so my experience with those and the 6106 is zilch. The 6106 works best with the 350B's. |
Bummer. I'm going to remove my 350B's and go back to the Sovteks that the preamp came with. :)
I don't know... is .1a extra heater current in a regulator really too much for the power supply to handle?
I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with the 350B's and know quite a few people using them.
The power supply problems I am aware of are caused mostly by fast starting - direct heated rectifiers. |
Whoopadeedoo - if you're using a Chardonnay, just disconnect your power supply from the line stage and turn on the power supply. That's all it takes to burn in the Bendix. I had mine running 24/7 for more than a week before it started to sound good.
While I really love the Bendix and what it does, I can imagine cases where it will not suit every system and every listening preference. At one point, I recall being very drawn in to the Gold Lion KT66 / GZ34 fat base combo for delivering the most seductive and involving musical experience. When listening, I realized that everything (tonally) was somewhat incorrect but I found I listened longer to the system. |
Ah.. so Mick like the Bendix too! Nice! Sorlowski, thanks for posting. |
