Supratek Owners Thread

My Chardonnay is on the way. In the meantime, I need to make a quick decision about isolation. Would someone with a Chardonnay mind messaging me the dimensions (LxDxH, including tubes) of each of the pieces? Thanks,

Gene

One more thing to add is that Mick estimates the PSU to be 18 lbs and the preamp 9 lbs (ships at 16 kg).

Thanks,Jack. The reason I asked is because looking at the photos Mick has posted currently on Agon, it’s not apparent: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9d477-supratek-audio-chardonnay-tube#&gid=1&pid=2. Does what you have, assuming you do, look different? And btw, what’s that knob on the top left in front of the tube do, if it’s still there?

Thanks. One more question about that: where is the remote sensor located on the main unit?

Has anyone tried Grant Fidelity's Treasure Globe 6SN7-SE?

Thanks. Looks like I have a few things to learn about its options.

The Chardonnay is as advertised. Very nice warm clear sound with stock tubes. And maintained that and more with the Shuguang WE6SN7 and adding an aftermarket fuse. Easily an improvement over the very good PrimaLuna Dialogue preamp with the best tubes that I used while waiting. For $2250 shipped, an excellent deal.

Synergistic Research Orange (but with the caveat to go up at least 25% from spec). Audio Magic Ultimate Beeswax second (spec ok; don’t know about the Ultimate Premium because the one I had broke while trying to pull it to change its direction, and so won’t be dealing with them again). Not all aftermarket fuses are created equal, anymore than our ears or pocketbooks are (which affects the what people say they like and recommend). I’ve tried several brands/models, but not all. 

Think of the power fuse as an extension of the power cord, the last step on the way to the most important part of any electronics, the power supply. Thus, fuses can potentially do sonically much of what power cords do. Here we spend all sorts of money and time fine choosing power cords, but then leave that least link as a mass produced cheap OEM design. So things tend to gravitate toward the least common denominator (not all the power cord’s effects are lost). 

Good choice and definitely worth the wait, although I’m surprised about the time, as not long ago he was advertising the Chardonnay here on Agon and delivery looked almost immediate.

An idea while waiting is to time to acquaint yourself with the tube 6SN7 and recti tube market, if you aren’t already (the rear tubes in the preamp section are probably best left alone). In addition to reading this thread, good sources I’ve found are the following:

head-fi:
- the reference 6SN7 thread
- dubstep girl’s massive 5ar4 5r4 5u4g rectifier review (p.1 & p.118 redo)

What’s Best Audio Forums:
- Lampizator Valve Tube Rolling thread
- Psvane Acme Series (new flagship series)
- LampizatOr Golden Atlantic + TRP

TNT Audio:
- shuguang treasures cv181 thread (pt 1 and pt 2 - two threads I think)
- shuguang globe 6sn7-e thread

YouTube:
- 6SN7 NOS tubes video

Dehavilland HiFi
- 6SN7 shoot out

Grant Fidelity: go to GF site and click on Tubes for info and sales (located in Alberta Canada I think). Top notch & prices & service

Some of these are obviously indirect and just a matter of reading through and spotting ideas that you likely won't come across elsewhere, and also asking questions privately. I wish I had read these earlier, as it would have saved me a lot of time and money with both my Lampi TRP and the Supratek. Also feel free to message me if you have any questions (and for ideas from some private messages I’ve received). Good luck,

Gene

P.S. As for isolation, the AV Roomservice EVPs are about the best truly effective low cost deal around (I have four MDR’s under the pre and four HDR’s under the pre PSU -- under speakers too).

I just got an email for a post by jeony about the Cortese and how well his tube rolling turned out, but I don’t see the post. In any case, in addition to liking the Melz 1578 the best and the Shuguang WE6SN7 Plus next, he mentions the 6922 and E108F. The latter two are not used in the Chardonnay afaik. The back pair are 6N3C. I tried the Tung-Sol 7581A as reputedly the best replacement but ending up sending them back, as I wasn’t sure one of pair was good. In addition, Mick made clear that he doesn’t like the 7581 and didn’t think the regulator works correctly with it. Has anyone had a different experience back there?

jeony, On the cool to warm spectrum, how would you rate the Melz?

For anyone interested, there’s a thread on Steve Hoffman Music Forums, "6SN7 tubes. Could you please put in order from best to worse these NOS tubes?" (links are not allowed on Agon) In particular, there’s a couple of photos of the Melz on page 2. I PM’d the writer and have learned a few more things to especially look out for: 1) a label or appropriate numbers showing legitimacy on the glass, and down below on the metal base an OTH; and most telling, 2) a pair of 5-hole vertical "plates" in front (not the solid ones), and inside them ridged posts (the hole and ridged post seem to go together). That eliminates the 1950’s ones and most or all of the 1960’s. And watching for those characteristics eliminates the counterfeits. Unless one gets lucky, it seems that virtually all the sellers these days are in Russia or thereabouts.

Wow, what a difference in forums! I’ve been on a JansZen Valentina A8 actives thread at AudioCircle recently. Those speakers are hybrid electrostatic actives, a meter tall, that include everything except the source. From a practical standpoint, that’s awfully appealing (I have ATC actives). Even better is that the developer claims that because of his design better power cords and ICs for the speakers (as opposed to the source) don’t matter and a regenerator is unnecessary as well. So I ask, "Tell me about their tone on a cool-neutral-warm continuum." I make clear that I’m looking for emotional involvement, not to be listening to the hardware (the latter in my experience is typical of gear that emphasizes clarity, transparency and neutrality, which JansZen does).

Now, these are $12K plus speakers that weigh ~65 lbs each and an audition would mean shipping across the country and moving my speakers out of their good location, so I figure let’s find out first if it’s worth it. The odd, yet revealing thing so far is not one person has been willing to answer my question (including in effect the writer in Part-Time Audiophile whose review got me looking at the Valentina's, which I’d never heard of, in the first place). In fact, this afternoon one guy, who has the passive version, which is not really comparable, wrote that " If someone wants to hear what is on each recording, reproduced with even frequency response, great dynamics, and low distortion, the Valentinas will do it. If the listener wants all recordings to sound similar -- say, warm and comfortable -- the Valentinas probably are not for them." How does one have a productive discussion with that?

So, coming back to this more sympatico thread, thanks for your comment, and good news to hear that the Cortese is coming through for you. Lately, I’ve been focused more on the Lampi Atlantic TRP dac. The Tesla EL51 pair turn it into a whole different ball game, and match really well with the USAF 596 rectifier (also good in a Supratek, if you can find one). For the Chardonnay, recently I’ve been using a 1940s Italian Fivre 5U4G rectifier, which is lovely, and tried a pair of 1950’s CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT in the main unit. While they turned out to be a touch better than the very good Shuguang WE6SN7’s, two of the three tubes I was sent had problems and had to go back. I read that even better are the Melz 1578 and Tung-Sol NOS 6SN7 and 6F8G (+ adapter) versions. Have to see if a pair for a good price (and genuine product) comes along. But no hurry, the dac + preamp are so gorgeous right now.

Great report. What do you mean by Mick handpicked the tubes to get a sound? Did you provide the desired goal or was this his normal process of choosing that you like?

Markus -- Thanks. Never heard of the CBS 5962. At least at Upscale Audio they don’t come cheap, but I just noticed what look like a good matched pair on eBay for a reasonable price. I've been using the Shuguang replica and it's a nice tube. There are some other possibly good choices at Grant Fidelity.

A 6SN7 search today turned up a few resources I had forgotten or hadn't come across before (links can't be posted on Agon). Some good info.

- head-fi: " The Reference 6SN7 Thread"
- What's Best Forum: " Shootout of Nos 6sn7 tubes"
- jacmusic.com: 6SN7 page (under NOS > 6SN7)

What these lists don't include are the more recent Chinese tubes.

First off, any change, gear or even a tube change on the same piece, makes for a different sound. No matter what you do, your "magic" will have to be recreated, whether with the tubes provided or after rolling, and even then is always somewhat different than the last time (shades of magic, so to speak).

About the LTA pre, I haven't heard it but in the process of deciding what to go for I asked its developer (Mark) and those on an LTA thread, I think on head-fi, about where it stood on the warm to cool continuum. The unanimous answer was decidedly "neutral." Since I favor some warmth and don't get along big time with what passes for neutral -- it sounds cool to cold to me, -- the owners and those familiar with the LTA explicitly steered me away. For Supratek, what caught my attention on the site was that Mick prefers and designs for some degree warmth. An email exchange confirmed that. 

I think the coolness is baked in by design, based on exchanges with the LTA developer. Over the last several years the audio market has gravitated in good part to “neutral” as the standard, something that appeals to customers who listen more to the hardware (“sonic effects”) than those who primarily listen to the music. Mick has stuck to his guns.

Grant died back then. His wife took over and shifted the operation’s focus, since Grant was the developer (I had his very decent low cost dac). I assume she’s still running the show, but don’t actually know.

@dentdog et al How has your tube rolling gone? Which of the Sylvania chrome domes did you try? Came across a head-fi thread that says you have to be careful with the GTA and GTB models - https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-6sn7-identification-guide.209782/. Not sure what to make of it re the Chardonnay, which I have on order. Also note in one post he says the term chrome dome is incorrectly used for some models now. There are also some 6SN7 reviews/shoot-outs posted (see below). Looking around the Grant Fidelity/Psvane site, they found the Shuguang WE version and the Psvane one’s to be very close. One pays more for the better versions partly because of the warranty but also because they are found to be the best of the best, upper 10%. Same type of thing that Upscale Audio does. The ones costing less at eBay or Chinese store sites are made out to be part of the rest. Don’t know if the latter is true, as it may be a matter of luck of the draw, or maybe the stores are just not getting the cream of the crop. But then there’s the WE Plus version with the carbon fiber coating that’s been lauded. Lots of choices, and some not necessarily dear.

- http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_e.html
- http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_treasures_cv181_pt2_e.html (follow up) -- the CV-181 is a misnamed 6SN7
- http://www.dehavillandhifi.com/6sn7_vt.htm

@ironsienna How old was your version of the Chardonnay and what differences did you hear going to the Sauvignon, with speakers that is, as I don't use headphones? When I asked, Mick described them as different, depending on one's tastes, without being specific. I would imagine the Sauvignon improves on some things, such as soundstage and refinement, but the "different" is what I'm curious about. Thanks,

I have a a Chardonnay on order, but have not heard either company’s gear. What I do know is what others have said: 1) Supratek is tonally on the warm side, Microzotl is definitely “neutral” (I’ll look up the forum link later); and 2) Someone with a BHK recently bought a current Cabernet used and ended up selling it in short order, saying privately to me that the BHK had better dynamics in his system. I think that Cabernet was the standard, not the dual. What I don’t know (or recall) is to what degree he had rolled tubes on either, which could have affected his results.

The thread was at head-fi and the response I got about where the LTA Microzotl preamps stand on a cool-to-warm continuum were either clearly "neutral" or hard to decipher (pg 7-8):
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/microzotl-3-by-linear-tube-audio-true-high-end-audio.895908/page-7

Here’s the message I got re the Cabernet, and it was a dual:
"I did like it quite a lot but have returned to my PS Audio BHK Reference. Both are really good but the BHK has better dynamics and immediacy... in my system."

The Sauvignon is not a current model, at least per the website. I noticed the older (early) one being sold by Echo Audio in the States, but Mick said the cost of bringing it up to date + shipping would be more than the cost of a new Cabernet, which is the model that I think replaced it. I’ve got an order in for a Chardonnay, but am still mulling over switching it. If I were to, it seems like the Cab single is not worth it unless one lives nearby.

My understanding is that the difference between the Chardonnay and Cabernet is not just the complexity of the power supplies, but in the quality (or price) of the components used within both sections, i.e., the kind that make a difference in sound quality. How much more than that is involved, I don't know.

Btw, the prices you are quoting are for the more expensive cabinetry/finish (+ shipping presumably to the States, another $250).

I got the same response from Mick. If you look at the reviews from roughly 15 years ago, there’s one that compared the two and found the Cabernet, or whatever it was called then, to be significantly more of the same. So I wonder what’s changed, and if Mick’s answer is a way of saying the differences have considerably narrowed over years.

Here’s Mick’s answer to the difference between Chardonnay and Cabernet, dual DHT/6SN7 option aside:

As you know the law of diminishing returns applies here, its a bit hard to describe difference, but I’d say the Cabernets are just more pleasing , they have a bit more magic, stuff you don’t exactly “hear” but very satisfying. I’m very proud of the Chardonnay, because it sounds so good, and snubs its nose at the rip off prices of some of the junk out there. Its a simple uncomplicated design that delivers. The Cabernet is a little more complex that delivers a bit more, but is still very competitive price. I guess it comes down to want you want to spend, but you will be happy with either of them.

Thanks for the info. How would you describe your early ‘50s Sylvania on the neutral to warm continuum? I’ve read a lot about those tubes, but everyone’s description is a little different.

I have a GEC U52 in very good electrical and sonic shape that I’d like to sell, if anyone is interested. I bought it a few months ago barely used and with very good measurements in an eBay auction, ran it for about ten days, and then for an hour or less since then a few times as I mixed and matched to find what worked best for my set up. So it’s got a whole lot of good life ahead of it. Send a PM if interested.

Looking for others’ thoughts. I’m now in a position to upgrade from the Chardonnay, so a couple of days ago I asked Mick what would an "all stops out" single 6SN7 Cabernet look like. He responded that "all out" would be the Grange Signature circuit, but would need the 6J5 instead. It seems he could do it all in the Chardonnay’s main case, since the two extra power supply tubes showing in the the Cabernet photo are 6L6’s moved over for the DHT Cabernet, not the 6SN7 one.

I have some reading to do about the 6J5 (there's a long head-fi thread). My inclination: After going through lots of NOS 6SN7’s and 6F8G’s and equivalents, and lots of time and $$$, I find the Treasure Globe from Rachel of Premium Vacuum Tubes in Canada (from China) easily the best of the bunch for my tastes and hate to give them up, afraid I wouldn’t find anything as good among the 6J5’s. Another possibility that I tossed out to Mick is a Grange Signature w/o the phono section, but don’t know what tubes are involved in that beyond the 6J5, assuming he’d even do that.

Thoughts? Thanks,

Thanks. Not sure I'll go for the mod when I go up to the Cabernet, but I'll have to discuss that with Mick. Because I use powered speakers, the Chardonnay is downstream from a Lampi dac for me, and with the Treasure Globes (Grant Fidelity), I had to change from a USAF 596 to the Sophia Aqua 274B to get the  bit of warmth I wanted. I don't see changing tubes for the Cabernet to start with. Hope it stays that way because after all those older tubes I really like this combo.

@aldnorab3 I got a Chardonnay a couple of years ago, wanting to dip my toes in first, but my hunch is you’d not be unhappy moving up right off, if you can handle it.. I’m now going to a 6SN7 Cabernet and glad to hear someone say what I’ve been hoping, that the overall tone will be the same. Since I’m not interested in messing with more tubes or wanting a dual option, I’ll be able to stick with what I’ve come to like. I would add that the two power tubes on the back of the main unit are also worth playing with. Replacing the Sovteks with RCA 6L6GC’s from the early 1960’s made a noticeable improvement.

Hopefully, very soon. I skipped trying to Sachs back when was because unlike Mick, Don didn't offer balanced out and wanted to charge me a lot extra for caps to handle the impedance of my ATC speakers.