Subwoofers - Final Thoughts with Martin Logan ESL 13A

I just saw your Virtual System, those are awesome looking speakers in a beautiful space. I can imagine their sound, and suspect you are chasing something you don’t really need as audiophile1 implied, or said, not needed for him.

I mentioned my friend. He listens here, thinks he might need a sub. I agree he needed a sub in his prior space, however, we listen in his new smaller dedicated listening space, and I love his system, and always advise that he has enough bass, he could lose what is wonderful now.

His current space, I would first try a pair of reasonably sized stereo subs, pair of 8’s, 10’s? he is still thinking single monster driver. Years ago he built a table/sub with 18" woofer for the larger room, blew some amps, never got something he loved.

Send photo of your space to Martin Logan and KEF, that will help them help you.

a few bass tracks that you might enjoy and help you figure something out.

I just moved my Sumiko Talisman S Cartridge with it’d stiff Sapphire tube cantilever to my ’fixed’ long arm.

I’m gonna listen again to ascertain if it has a speck tighter bass than my AT33PTG/II playing Cecil, Mila, Niels/Sam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_Spaces

mila drumke, my funny valentine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukrNpHCDSjc

double bass, niels and sam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jvz_hcTZ9k

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I am big on Imaging, and would try a stereo pair of subs, front firing, located next to the FL and FR, knowing that the fundamental notes begin mono, however the overtones become directional. I am not a fan of ports, if so, front firing only, and try stuffing them.

audiophile1 mentions the historic difficulty matching subs with electrostatics. I think I might try and find a high quality crossover dedicated to the job, one I could return for full refund. when you take the low bass job away from the panels, both location and seamless blend become even harder.

I’ve never heard a Swarm, but aren’t they for larger spaces? Use with speakers that have large woofers, that already give low bass/overtones directionality, the swarm for ’missing’ very low foundation?

I think of my 15" woofers as built-in stereo subs, I get the advantage of 6.83 cubic feet by using the same/larger cabinet as the horns.

here is a 3 LP set, wonderful music, not just demo tracks

The BASS, 3 LP Box Set

I am no sub expert, others here are far more experienced and knowledgeable about subs and everything else.

You need to hear options in your space, with enough trial time to experiment and not rush to judgement, AND, you need return/refund options, that ain’t easy.

I just impart what I have experienced for others to consider/try. I suspect too many have never heard great imaging which begins with ____ frequencies and presents the location of Jazz Bass players excellently. A member here made me aware, and I keep repeating, the overtones of mono fundamentals become directional.

Location, front firing, no ports is all primarily related to achieving stereo bass imaging.

I’m 76, I’ve heard Quads in demo and nice systems, all the NYC showrooms and annual hifi shows, Martin Logans, Carver’s attempts, some others, but have not heard subs and panels together in a home system. I just don’t know anyone who has that, or anyone with a swarm setup.

My understanding of Swarms is to extend BELOW a system that already has ’enough’ stereo bass imaging. Some might add a swarm to my speakers in this space, I am happy when there is 'enough' of a foundation, more can turn to mud easily.

I never bought any variation of electrostatics because of the ’less than full’ foundation that you are working on and what audiophile 1 referred to. Likewise, I never got hooked on ribbon tweeters, or super-tweeters as some people do. Inheriting 4 way speakers, horns with 15" woofers at age 30 has limited my experimentation.

1. separate low bass signals prior to the amp, thus you need a separate preamp, or an amp or integrated with pre-out

2. pre-out to a crossover to separate low bass for

a. a self-powered sub or

b. stereo pair of subs, or

c. swarm of subs. (I never heard a swarm)

3. low bass to sub(s) only

4. everything else above low bass back to the amp. Now neither the amp or the primary FL and FR need to try and make low bass, the most power hungry need and source of distortion.

IOW, stop asking a 6-1/2" driver to be a woofer, let it do a better/cleaner job with frequencies it can produce cleanly, starting with upper bass.

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the crossover can be in the sub, designed by the sub’s maker, using line in, it’s crossover, line out to your amp.

IF you use speaker wires in/out of a sub, the primary amp is still trying to make low bass, which makes it harder to use a lower powered amp (the easiest way to try tubes). It does take the low bass job away from your primary FL and FR, so that’s something, but line is best.

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I mentioned a dedicated crossover, a separate. It was more prevalent many years ago, self-powered subs with variable crossover frequencies and slopes have progressed as well as all forms of DSP which goes in/out of favoritism.

my friend, from my old dog era, might add a huge sub to his system (tweeter and pair of 6-1/2" drivers each side), and he will build his own crossover.

Perhaps members here can recommend a crossover separate that ’finally’ solved their quest.

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’Force Canceling’ has been around, and KEF and Martin Logan that you mentioned (their refined speakers, many models, affordable models lack low bass, they NEED to solve this) both have gone in that direction. Makes sense regarding the forces involved, and KEF has 4 preset location DSP settings. How to get some imaging out of them? I suggest you write them both, ask about adding subs without losing imaging, see what they have to say.

Is Force Cancelling More Important than Imaging? You would think 15" woofers, in cabinets with no bracing, would shake anything off their slanted tops, and yet, I let Donna put some things precious to her on top, they stay put.

I thought I might have to add some bracing when I had these made, but happily I haven’t. That ElectroVoice 15W Woofer’s monster magnet from 1958 weighs 37lbs. 3 Wheels (more weight per wheel, dual wheel caster's axels do not wobble) The 2x4 in the base lowers the front wheels 1-1/2", ’raises’; slants the face back, and aims the horn tweeter at seated ear height, while altering the angle of reflections from the floor and ceiling. Toe-In is easily changed for a single centered listener or two off-center listeners, also minimizing side wall reflections.

Toe-In Alternates, Stereo and Video

Did anyone notice Donna’s plants on a tray on top of my Reel to Reel? That tray moves to the top of the TT when I play tapes, the speakers move to wider positioning. I promised Donna the top of the equipment rack when we bought it, then I decided I needed to put some equipment on top, so I gave her two trays, and lots of trust.

Look at the top of the piano, and soon the little Christmas Tree: nothing touches anything else, felt feet, rubber buttons, 1/4" clearance, zero buzz kill.

2 Channel Imaging is Phantom, no driver is blocked, it’s simply the l/r balance that reaches your head

m-db

Carver Amazing Loudspeakers 2

Adding more than a single woofer

Stereophile Review, I’m gonna read it now

A quick read revealed t was not a finished product when reviewed, an excerpt:

"Finally, I want to make it perfectly clear that, as of now, I do not recommend this speaker. If and when the design stabilizes, and I have a chance to evaluate a true production sample, then a final assessment can be rationally made. I consider it insane to spend any money on what has to be regarded, for now, as an evolving prototype."

never saw or heard, but returnable,

tannoy, dual 12", 14 day returns

https://reverb.com/item/27660088-tannoy-12-compact-dual-passive-subwoofer-white-vsx-12-2bp-wh?utm_source=aw&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifishark.com&sv1=affiliate&sv_campaign_id=536903&awc=67144_1733525603_fcd277f63a5b5710169c19bccefe9f33