Subwoofer speed is in the room, not the box


First, if you like swarm, that’s fine, please start a thread somewhere else about how much you like swarm.

I want to talk about the impression that subs are fast or slow compared to planar or line sources.

The concern, and it’s correct, is that adding a subwoofer to say a Martin Logan or Magneplanar speaker will ruin the sound balance. That concern is absolutely a valid one and can happen with almost any speaker, not just speakers with tight dispersion control.

What usually happens is that the room, sub and main speakers aren’t integrating very well. Unfortunately for most audiophiles, it’s very hard to figure out exactly what is wrong without measurements or EQ capabilities in the subwoofer to help you.

So, there’s the myth of a small sub being "faster." It isn’t. It’s slower has worst distortion and lower output than a larger sub but what it does is it doesn’t go down deep enough to wake the dragons.

The biggest problems I’ve heard/seen have been excessively large peaks in the subwoofer range. Sometimes those peaks put out 20x more power into a room than the rest of the subwoofer. Think about that!! Your 1000 W sub is putting out 20,000 watts worth of power in some very narrow bands. Of course that will sound bad and muddied. The combination of sub and main speaker can also excessively accentuate the area where they meet, not to mention nulls.

A lot is made about nulls in the bass but honestly IMHO, those are the least of our worries. Of course too many of them can make the bass drop out, but in practicality is is the irregular bass response and the massive peaks that most prevent any good sub from functioning well in a room.

Bass traps are of course very useful tools to help tame peaks and nulls. They can enable EQ in ways you can’t do without it. If your main speakers are ported, plug them. Us the AM Acoustics room mode simulator to help you place your speakers and listening location.

Lastly, using a subwoofer to only fill in 20 Hz range is nonsense. Go big or go home. Use a sub at least at 60 Hz or higher. Use a single cap to create a high pass filter. Use EQ on the subwoofer at least. Get bass traps. Measure, for heaven’s sake measure and stop imagining you know a thing about your speaker or subwoofer’s response in the room because you don’t. Once that speaker arrives in the room it’s a completely different animal than it was in the showroom or in the spec sheet.

Lastly, if your room is excessively reflective, you don’t need a sub, you need more absorption. By lowering the mid-hi energy levels in a room the bass will appear like an old Spanish galleon at low tide.

erik_squires

Showing 3 responses by audiokinesis

@erik_squires wrote:

"The biggest problems I’ve heard/seen have been excessively large peaks in the subwoofer range. Sometimes those peaks put out 20x more power into a room than the rest of the subwoofer. Think about that!! Your 1000 W sub is putting out 20,000 watts worth of power in some very narrow bands. Of course that will sound bad and muddied."

Well written; you really put it into perspective!

No SUBWOOFER is that bad all by itself. However the subwoofer+room INTERACTION can be that bad, even with a superb subwoofer. And said interaction doesn’t have to be THAT bad to still be really bad.

In the bass region, imo the INTERACTION of subwoofer + room IS the "elephant in the room"; the uncomfortable-to-acknowledge, difficult-to-deal-with thing.

I agree with you that the bass-region dips are perceptually benign relative to the peaks.

And those peaks are perceptually even worse than they look on paper: Note that the Equal Loudness Curves bunch up south of 100 Hz. So what happens is, a 5 dB peak at 40 Hz can be perceptually comparable to a 10 dB peak at 1 kHz!

The ear’s heightened sensitivity to changes in SPL in the bass region is one of the reasons why it can take a long time to dial in the correct level on a subwoofer (those maddeningly-small knobs are another). On the other hand, the reduction of those peaks makes a PERCEIVED qualitative improvement greater than one would expect just from eyeballing the before-and-after curves.

I agree with pretty much everything you went into detail about.

Duke

@erik_squires wrote: "Installing 1 subwoofer correctly is a big deal and a lot more work than most audiophiles want to do. Tripling the number of speakers (from 2 to 6) for SWARM is also a big deal for many. Failing to do either well is what makes for slow, mushy or overbearing sub experience."

If you are using a single subwoofer, the location of that single subwoofer may well be, and often is, critical.

But the more subwoofers you use, the less critical the location of any one of them becomes.

Duke

@gdaddy1 wrote:  "I couldn't find ONE room where anyone cut the main speakers with high crossed subs. Not one... 

"So the question is... If the high pass method makes the speaker sound so much better, wouldn't every speaker manufacturer use this superior method?"

Did you ask any of them why they chose to not high-pass filter their main speakers?