Subwoofer Question

Hello puppet,

     As millercarbon stated, I also agree that you will attain the best bass quality utilizing 4 subs, even in a small room.  In fact, 4 subs will actually make your room seem larger and you’ll also notice improvements in the sound stage imaging and size.
     I know of another Audiogon member, hleeid, who had a small office with very limited floor space for 4 subs.  He purchased the Audio Kinesis Swarm 4-sub bass system and the AK owner, Duke Lejeune, detailed how to locate one of the four subs on the floor and the other three subs off the floor supported on shelves.  Each sub is relatively small and light, at 12”x14.5”x28” and 40 lbs,with a 10” aluminum long-throw woofer in each sub.  They have a rated bass extension down to 20 Hz +/- 3 dB.       The price is about $3K, including the 1,000 w class AB amp/control unit to power all 4 subs.  I’d suggest you call or email Duke to discuss.  Or, you could pm hleeid and ask him about it first.

Tim

" Doesn't the Swarm include a fundamental parametric equalization adjustment?"


Hello m-db,

     The AK Swarm and Debra DBA systems both use the same Dayton SA-1000 sub amp/control unit.  It has very limited equalization functionality, I believe mainly to mitigate the effects of floor to ceiling slap echo.  
     I've never felt a need for any PEQ adjustments in my room but I've read about other 4-sub DBA users utilizing separate PEQ and DSP components with claimed positive results.

 Tim

     Virtually anyone with fairly extensive experience utilizing more than 1 sub in their room and system, will agree that 2 subs perform twice as well as a single sub and 4 subs perform about twice as well as a pair of subs.       Yes, this is my opinion based on my experience of using initially a single sub, then a pair and currently 4 subs in my system and room.  But the theory that in-room bass performance improves as more subs are added to the room has been scientifically and independently proven, and with results documented and summarized in White Papers that are accessible online, by several acoustic experts including Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Floyd Toole and Todd Welti of Harman International.  You can google these names, read all about their findings and decide for yourself if you'd like.
     Of course, none of this negates the fact that the benefits of multiple subs begins to be clearly perceived with the utilization of 2 subs in any given room, especially if very good bass performance is only required at a single designated listening position in the room.  A minimum of 3 subs are required for very good bass performance to be perceived throughout an entire room.
     It's technically possible to attain somewhat decent bass at a single designated listening position with one sub. But this designated seated position needs to avoid being placed in a specific room position that avoids all bass modes in the room, which cause bass peaks, dips and even nulls. 
     Utilizing the 'sub crawl method' (google it) is a very useful tool to avoid this for both single and dual sub systems but, since it's fairly well known that dual subs in a room sounds so obviously and vastly superior to a single sub, very few individuals still use only a single sub in their systems anymore.  I believe 4425 just may be the very last human on earth with 1 sub.  Where's he been for the last 25 years? 

Tim

docknow: " I want another one, not for output, but I do think there is stereo bass information to be recovered in some recordings, principally in live concert recordings."

Hello docknow.

     I don’t know why you believe this. There are 2 factual problems with your statement:

1. Humans are unable to localize (determine where a sound is coming from) on all bass tones below 80 Hz. Therefore, we perceive all bass below 80 Hz as mono bass and there is no stereo imaging created, occurring or perceived with bass sound frequencies this deep, whether heard played live or recorded

2. There are virtually zero commercially available music recordings containing stereo bass (separate and unique left and right channel bass content) below 100 Hz. Recording engineers have known that humans cannot localize bass frequencies below 80 Hz for more than 70 years and, as a result, have been summing all recorded bass content below 100 Hz to mono on their recording mixes on all formats (LPs, CDs and even high resolution direct to digital music files) ever since.
     If you doubt this, just try to identify a single commercially available music recording from the past 70 years, on any format, that contains stereo bass below 100 Hz. If you find a single example, it will be the very first that I, and millions of other music lovers worldwide, are aware of.
     So, even if you are superhuman and can localize bass sound tones below 80 Hz and setup your system to reproduce bass frequencies below 80 Hz in stereo, there’s virtually zero music content available worldwide to play on it. I’d suggest this makes the debate, over whether or not true stereo deep bass below 80 Hz is feasible, moot.  Wouldn’t you?
     Current direct to digital high resolution recording technology actually is capable of recording music with separate and unique left and right channel bass content below 100 Hz. The reality that recording engineers still sum the bass below 100 Hz on these recordings to mono is due to the very important truth that fact #1 from above still applies, humans are unable to localize bass sound tones under 80 Hz.
     I hope these facts have convinced you that the pursuit of a system capable of reproducing true stereo bass below 80 Hz is futile.  Instead, I suggest you use a minimum of 2 and up to 4 subs to create a high quality mono bass system with bass extension down to a least 20 Hz. I can describe in detail how and why to do this in a future post if you’d like.

Tim

noble100: "Virtually anyone with fairly extensive experience utilizing more than 1 sub in their room and system, will agree that 2 subs perform twice as well as a single sub and 4 subs perform about twice as well as a pair of subs." 

clio09: "LOL. This one's a classic. Most of the time I avoid your drivel so you probably said this before multiple times and I missed it. Just had to call you out on it this time. LOL."

Hello clio09,

     Please excuse my drivel that tends to get your panties in a bunch.  I have chosen to ignore the sticks and stones you have thrown, btw like a sissy, in my general direction. 
      I'm not exactly sure what your major malfunction is, but I believe it may have something to do with me completely and factually shutting the door on your notions about the existence of true stereo deep bass below about 80 Hz.  Facts can be such stubborn, enlightening and inconvenient counterpoints to notions of nonsense sometimes.  
     Fortunately, your avoidance. obfuscations and denials of the scientifically and anecdotally proven truths contained in my quote above, have no effect on their veracity.  

Tim