Hi @jazztherapist, I have an AX-7e with a REL T-9 and it sounds great, but has some serious caveats that have been pointed out here. 1. The speaker inputs of the REL are isolated and do indeed work with the Ayre's balanced outputs, as well as other tricky ones like Class D amps. However you need to connect the ground wire of the REL to the chassis on the Ayre, NOT a negative speaker terminal. I wound up drilling a hole in my Ayre chassis to install a binding post. This was a serious PITA because the Ayre bottom chassis is stainless steel which unlike aluminum is very hard. It's doable with the right drill bit (cobalt) and some drilling fluid, but not a lot of fun. Plus you are mangling the chassis, but whatever, it's just a small hole that is easily patched with a screw. (I can show you a picture.) 1b. After I drilled the hole, I realized a much easier solution was to use one of the screws that secure the XLR jacks. These are grounded, and actually this cheap Radio Shack binding post I had lying around was the exact same screw size/thread, and I could have just screwed it in there. Oh well... it kind of blocks one of the XLR inputs that way anyway. 2. This wiring setup works, HOWEVER, if you turn off the Ayre, you will get a fairly loud hum from the REL. This is because the Ayre outputs are floating and not referenced to ground at all. I haven't figured out a way to get around this short of modifying the Ayre with a dedicated output for the sub with a muting relay. Referencing the speaker outputs to ground with a high-value resistor would probably muck up the sound to some degree. Anyway, my solution is to leave the Ayre powered up at all times, which sounds better anyway... Other than these major inconveniences, I highly recommend REL with the AX-7e - the T-9 blends seamlessly with even difficult speakers (I heard you can even use it with Maggies!), and it should go well with your Epos. I've used them with Merlin TSM's as well as multiple Role Audio and Silverline speakers with satisfying results. Placement is easy (just follow REL's recommendation of tucking it in the corner) and as long as you follow their conservative "augmentation" approach of keeping the x-over point and level low, it will not only not interfere with the mids and highs, but actually make them sound better by balancing out the spectrum. I am not sure I agree with the recommendations to upgrade to a specific speaker based solely on the match with your Ayre. It sounds like Ayre + Vandersteen is a nice combo but there are a lot of considerations and personal tastes involved. If you really want to turn this into a speaker hunt, this is a totally different discussion that I'd be happy to chime in on too! But on your original topic, hopefully the above info helps. :) Cheers, @taww http://taww.co |
p.p.s. I’m enjoying the $1k REL with a $7500 monitor speaker right now. I’m not saying it’s perfect but subwoofer vs better speaker is certainly not an either-or proposition. In fact the point of a good subwoofer is to augment the bottom 2 octaves where it’s very difficult to get proper room loading from 2 speakers positioned for best imaging and tonal balance. If you do get a good sub it should survive an upgrade to the Epos, and even help a speaker that has good bass. And in a room as small as yours, I think a full range speaker could be a bad idea - monitor + sub will likely be a lot easier to tune well. |
p.s. if you're keeping the Ayre for the long haul and are reasonably handy, there are a few tweaks (damping and cap upgrades) that I can recommend. |
@audioconnection wrote: The reason I disagree a single sub by the time he hears the bass for what op has paid for can easily overload that room spoiling or confusing what he already has right in the midrange balance, to begin with, it's still a can of worms.
2 properly adjusted small subs work better than one but forward firing drivers tend to draw more attention away chuffing and mooing with artifacts. Hi Johnny - definitely a potential issue, but I have not had any of these problems at all with the REL in a few different setups. They do work better with a speaker that has reasonable extension (say, -6dB @ 60Hz) and a smooth rolloff, so you can keep the crossover point low. I am not sure if the OP's Epos fits the bill. Also remember that REL does not have any sort of high-pass for the mains, so they are expected to run full range. It is truly "bass augmentation" only. |
@almarg wrote: ... An even better approach, IMO, would be to solder the wire from the sub’s negative input terminal(s) to the ground shell of an RCA plug, leaving the center pin unconnected, and inserting that plug into an unused RCA connector on the amp. That would result in a direct (essentially zero ohm) connection between the circuit grounds of the sub and the amp.
Hi @almarg - I don't believe that would work because the RCA grounds are not referenced to circuit ground. In fact they are totally isolated from one another, I verified this with a multimeter. The Ayre circuit is fully differential from input to output so I believe they treat the RCA ground the same as an inverting signal, which I'm guessing is why Ayre gear doesn't sound great with single-ended sources (a phase splitter or transformer coupling would better drive the balanced circuit, though at the cost of another passive/active stage). The impedance from chassis to circuit ground is negligible - there's a single star grounding point in the middle of the PCB where the ground plane is exposed to the screw, which goes through a brass standoff to the chassis. I also had this impedance concern but I measured and it was in the 10's of milliohms, and there is no hum whatsoever. However if I were taking my mod further, yes, I would put a ring connector under that grounding screw, making direct contact with the ground plane, and wire that to a proper connector for the subwoofer output. My more elaborate plan was to do this, add a muting relay and hooking it up to a 1/4" TRS connector with 10 ohm series resistors isolate/protect against shorts. I decided it wasn't worth the trouble though. :) |
@tomic601 transmission lines are the bomb. I haven't heard the Vandersteen but have heard a couple of Bud Fried's old designs, as well as the Role Audio models. They have a tuneful bass quality that's unique to the alignment.
Agree it's always a good call to contact the manufacturer. Fairly certain the answer will be the same as what has been discussed here though. I scoured the internet and experimented a ton looking for alternative solutions, only to find Charlie Hansen in another forum outlining basically what I said above. Not much you can do to get around the circuit topology. *shrug* |
@jazztherapist the AX7e definitely sounds best with a balanced source, but I’ve found it quite acceptable with single-ended, e.g. my Monarchy NM24 tube DAC still sounds quite good, as does the single-ended output of the PS Audio DirectStream DAC vs. its balanced output. Ayre apparently made some adjustments in the Evolution revision that improved performance with single-ended. YMMV though depending on the setup.
@almarg that’s an interesting question. I went and checked though and it appears the tape outs are also floating. I don’t have a schematic but it seems like Ayre is pretty consistent and obsessive about keeping everything truly differential and isolated.
@ctsooner if you go the AX7e route, definitely try it with upgraded input and supply caps. Little discussed fact, the AX7e is capacitor coupled at the input due to the bipolar input stage (AD844 opamp to be precise), and this has a large influence on the sound. The stock metallized polypropylene caps are quite transparent, but a bit lean/bright as Ayre was wont to voice their stuff back then. (I’ve heard they mellowed out a bit with the Twenty series, but haven’t heard them - dying to try the AX5 Twenty.) I’m using Jantzen Alumen Z-caps with terrific results, uber smooth and just a tiny hint of romanticism but still detailed and transparent. Also upgraded the supply caps to larger Mundorfs which improved dynamics, filled out the bottom end and made the mids and highs cleaner and more complete. The combination of those upgrades has made my system tremendously resolving yet natural and fatigue-free - vs. the stock unit, it’s more filled out and organic, and much less grainy - less "solid state" if you will. With the DirectStream Junior DAC, Silverline SR 17 Supreme speakers and Audience cables, I’ve reached a new level of "closeness to the source" that reminds me of listening to live mic feeds back in my conservatory days. The only thing I’m craving now is more power and low-end grunt, so looking at some more $$$ options like the AX5, Pass, Herron, Constellation, etc...
Also don’t forget to tape the heatsinks as Charlie suggested, takes some of the upper midrange glare off. :)
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@ctsooner yup understood, was mostly sharing those tips more broadly. I remember your rig from another thread, sounds VERY NIICE as Borat would say. :)
Not to hijack the thread, but AX5, Pass, Constellation, Gryphon, and Chord are some of the SS amps/integrateds I’m exploring right now. I might get a Bryston in and was thinking of hearing the Simaudio 600v2, but I have a feeling the other options are more what I’m looking for. |
@jazztherapist if you do decide to move on from the Epos and continue building your system around the AX7e, one thing that may help narrow the search is focusing on speakers that are reasonably efficient (at least 87db/watt) and a relatively easy load. E.g. stay clear of 4 ohm speakers, 6 ohm and above with relatively stable impedance curves are better. The AX7e uses small output devices and is not a high current design so it doesn't deal well with dips and swings. That may be one of the reasons the Vandersteen 1ci works well, it is specified at 6.8 ohms +/- 2 ohms which is very stable. My current speaker is relatively efficient and forgiving, and does sound good with it, but I do think it could be better with a more powerful amp - the maker told me it loves current (Dynaudio Esotar drivers are known for being that way). I have things at the other end of the spectrum lined up (e.g. Bryston 4B3) to test that theory. |
Just as a reminder, with no offense to the Vandy crowd, there are also many other good speaker options. ;) |
@ctsooner I think you mistake me for the anti-Vandy crowd. :) Not taking issue with your liking and recommending a brand, and certainly not trying to start a flame war or even a debate. But my general sense is there is a tendency here (and on the internet, and in society in general) for people to take a perfectly legitimate personal perspective, e.g. "I've tried Brands A, B and C and I really like A for these reasons, maybe you will like it too," and begin pushing it into the realm of "THIS IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST FOR YOU IT WILL FIX ALL YOUR PROBLEMS." This is by no means limited any particular "crowd," and my observation is it leads to polarization and ultimately less helpful information for people like the OP. When we start obsessing over brands, we stop talking about the concrete pros and cons of the products (keeping in mind that EVERY product has tradeoffs) and it becomes hard to process anything useful. Of course we assume a "YMMV" caveat on what people say here, but I do feel this tendency is rampant and detracts from the quality of discussion. So I might be (over-)reacting here and trying to adjust for that. (I'm a reviewer on the side, so I try to hold myself to a pretty high standard in terms of providing a useful, balanced perspective - I blog @ www.taww.co. But ultimately of course this is just a forum, and people are free to say what they like. ) That all said, I do take a bit of issue with this notion that a subwoofer is not worth the trouble. I agree this is the case with the vast majority of traditional subwoofer setups. At the risk of contradicting my anti-fanboy rant, I wouldn't lump REL subs into the same bucket as others. I really have found my REL T-9 very versatile - much more so than an earlier REL model I tried and returned maybe 15 years ago - and with very little downside with a wide variety of speakers. I also use a single sub and it works just fine. Maybe my standards for bass are a little lower, but keep in mind, bass-limited speakers have advantages over full-range ones too. The larger, more resonant cabinets and/or more complex crossovers of floorstanding speakers require a lot of skill (and usually expense) to tame vs. smaller monitors. I find when one goes from the 2-way to 3-way/floorstanding offering in a manufacturer's line, many aspects of sound quality (particularly speed and coherence) actually take a step backwards, and it can take a lot of money to get those back in the larger format. That's why the 2-way monitor format continues to thrive and is often the best compromise in a wide variety of circumstances, the key operating word being "compromise" - everything is a tradeoff. In my own case, I'm only now starting to look at floorstanders more seriously now that I can stretch my budget closer to the $10k range (e.g., I'm interested in hearing the Vandy Treos/Quattros). But given OP's ~$1200 budget (I think?), finding a floorstander with the focus and crispness of a good monitor may be tough, even on the used market. In that context, I wouldn't rule out a sub, it could potentially add a lot of enjoyment to his system. @nrenter I agree, dealing with the Ayre is not that bad, and just one of the things you have to live with given the balanced architecture. I don't think the OP is necessarily "missing" that, just hoping for a better solution. I do think Ayre could have made life easier by providing a ground post (I'm guessing they did not do this because people don't understand what a ground post is for and would just hook up the wrong things to it and muck up the sound). Also the hum when putting the amp in standby is annoying, it means I have to burn ~60w continuously leaving the amp powered, or go turn of the sub every time. I use the sub for the TV as well so that's not an option. |
@jazztherapist another speaker option is something like the Silverline Prelude, a little above budget ($1500) but you may be able to find one used. I reviewed the original model maybe 10 years ago and thought it was very good, making good on its promise of sounding like a focused mini-monitor with bass punch and dynamics. It’s been revised and improved since I reviewed it, and I know other Silverline models work well with the Ayre. It’s an easy load and pretty efficient. It won’t do sub-40Hz bass but will give your music a solid foundation. If you go used, find out when it was manufactured - the newer models have a different tweeter (silk vs. titanium) and some improvements. If you’re serious about it, I can ask Silverline’s Alan Yun to lend me a pair to try with my AX7e. If you really like the bookshelf format and can figure out how to stretch your budget later, I recently reviewed the Minuet Grand ($2k). Even if you can’t afford that, it might give you a sense of the Silverline "house" sound, and what you can expect if you step up from the Epos. http://taww.co/post/170777975517/review-silverline-minuet-grand-loudspeakersGoing even further up, if oomph is what you crave, I have a feeling you’ll really like the Dynaudio Special 40, but that’s way out of range ($3k) and I think the speaker deserves more current than the AX7e can deliver. I will think about some more options closer to $1k. I’m almost afraid to mention Elac as it triggers some strong responses here. :) But I will say I was pretty impressed with the UniFi UB5 in a modest setup. It’s full and punchy, but quite inefficient and the impedance dips low - Elacs tend to have complicated crossovers, I have a feeling they’re a no-go for the AX7e. (@ctsooner you are more than justified to call me out for being a Silverline fanboy now. :-D ) |
@audioconnection I'll get around to my local Vandy dealer soon enough, it's about 10 blocks from me. ;) |
@ctsooner no worries, I was being a little reactive too. I'll hit you up about those amps. :) |
