Hevac, the LFE channel on the NHT is summed to the stereo channels. It does not override it. Works like a charm. It was the only device I could find that could so this. Marchand offered to custom build me a 3 in 2 out Xover for a lot more money. Unfortunately NHT no longer makes the x2 but they show up used occasionally. |
I am using 2 JL 113 in an mixed 2 channel / multi channel system with my Parsifal Encores, using an external Xover and a bass EQ unit (the SVS). An important consideration in how you want to do this is whether or not you want to run your mains at full range along with the subs on 2 channel, or if you want to use the high pass from the Xover. Can you elaborate?
I presume for multi channel you will do all the bass managment and EQ in the Meridian SSP?
I think your best bet is indeed to use a switch and an analog cross over and some form of bass EQ for the subs in stereo mode.
Also, rather than summing the stereo signal I would run full discrete 2 channel stereo subs. You can split the mono LFE signal into a L/R signal into a stereo switch, and have a second stereo signal come in for use in 2 channel mode. |
Brad, glad there is professional confirmation for what my amateur intuition told me. I am running mains at full range and use a low pass filter for my discrete stereo sub signal. For MCH 5.1 I also sum the unfiltered LFE channel to the discrete stereo signal of my 2 subs. The only (non-pro, and non custom made) device I found that can do this is the NHT-X2 Xover. Now discontinued.
You mention cross-over frequency for LFE channel, but I presume this is only relevant is you cross over mains, center of surround to the LFE channel. If you don't you will simply get on the LFE channel what was mixed to that channel in the studio. |
You cannot apply bass management in either the Oppo or the Cary when playing in DSD Direct mode. However, when you play a 5.1 SACD you should still get information on your subs (this is the .1 channel), because this information is present on your source and does not require bass management to reproduce. When playing a stereo SACD (or a 4.0 or 5.0 SACD), you will not get any bass on the sub and need to convert to PCM if you want to use the subs. Try both modes and see if the benefits of bass management outweigh the loss in resolution of converting to DSD. Some have reporting no such loss exists, in which case PCM conversion is always preferable. To my ears the loss is substantial. IF you play a 5.1 SACD and you get no output on the subs something is wrong in your setup. |
Marty, not an unreasonable argument, but keep in mind that by crossing over to your subs at say 100Hz in order to get typical room modes in range of the EQ you apply on the subs, you are not only running the mains through an active filter. You are also turning your full range system into a satellite sub system.
I had a dialogue with a guy who was doing just that (basically using Avalon Eidolons as satellites!), and advised against it. He has since gone another direction I believe. It all depends on your room. If you have some horrific boomy modes the satellite + EQ'ed sub approach may sound better, but in a half decent room it probably won't.
There are a few alternatives though. Use the Rives Parc 3 band analog EQ unit (<300Hz) in the mains signal part. I had one of those for a while but never used it. The second option is to get a speaker with separate woofer cabinet and monitor, get an external cross-over, bi-amp them and apply EQ only to the woofer cabinet. In fact, the Vandersteens do just that out of the box. Their woofer cabinet is active and has build in EQ. The Salk Soundscapes would allow you to do that to, as do verity audios (you need to get the external cross-over). I toyed with this idea, but after measuring my room in REW and finding out my mode aroun 100 hz was less than 10db I decided not to bother. |
Would have been interesting but I never thought of it and never tried. Now I never will because I sold my my Verities and I am using Eidolon Visions. |
Hevac1, we have a very similar approach in that I cross over at 35Hz and run mains at full range. I am also using the NHT crossover (as low pass filter only) and it works like a charm. It sums the LFE to the stereo signal. Obvioulsy, it does NOT apply the Xover settings to the LFE channel but adds the "full range" LFE signal (which is typically up to 80-120Hz). Marchand will custom build you a Crossover that sums LFE and stereo as well. I believe it was Marty who mentioned he preferred the cheaper NHT though.
Funny you sould mention Floyd music. Blew up my midrange drivers listening to shine on you crazy diamond last month. |
For a two way X-over at low cross-over point tubes would probably not be your best bet. I was considering a custome made (i.e. LFE channel added) version of the (cheaper) XM-44. |
Sure, but to suggest Hevac should cut off his $40,000 speakers with 11" woofers at 80Hz and reproduce this range with two EQ'ed subs instead makes no sense. Now, if you believe a sub / satellite system has big inherent advantages that is a different discussion. But once you have sunk a lot of cash in a full range speaker, you might as well use it. Keep in mind that going up the foodchain in a speaker lineup usually involves getting bigger cabinets and woofers. If you opt for a sub / satellite configuration, get a cheaper model and deploy the savings towards subs. |
I my experience deep and solid bass response is more critical to realistically render "small jazz" (with bass and drumkit), than large orchestration. In fact, nowhere do I need my subs more than on small jazz. |
I did an in house shootout between the Avalons Eidolon Visions and my Verity Parsifals and prefered the former. Highs of Verity were a bit smoother, but I prefed mid and in particular high bass in the Avalons. I blew up the Avalon midrange playing Floyd at 95db (105 peak) at 12ft distance.
To my knowledge the NHT does not apply any crossover filtering to the LFE channel, and there is no 110Hz setting you can apply. It (correctly) assumes LFE is always crossed over in the SSP or source player. It passes on signal and sums it to the 2 channel information.
If you set the NHT to the same setting as the JLs you are applying two low pass filters (not sure slopes would match). You would get less signal degradation if you bypassed the filter in the JL (flip the switch) and just applied the crossover of the NHT, not sure the difference would be audible, but philosophically this would be preferable. How are you planning to score a used NHT if I may ask? |
Hevac - other thought. If you have set cross-over on your JL's for stereo mode (at say 35Hz), the JL's will cut of your LFE input at that frequency as well, and you would lose most of your LFE information. The only way around this is to use the NHT crossover as intended and as I described in my previous post, and switch off the JL's Xover. |
Should work. Very similar to what I am doing. Only thing to keep in mind is that if you apply cross over to your mains in the meridian in MCH mode, AND you run a set of outputs from your preamp (I presume with HT bypass) through the NHT, you will get low pass information from your mains twice.
First on the LFE channel (crossed over in the Meridian), and once more from the stereo inputs in the NHT. This is certainly the case if you cross over in the Meridian while still running the mains at full range. But even if you apply a high pass filter to the mains in the Meridian, quite a bit of LF information will still be there (because of the slope of the filter) for the NHT to send to the subs (adding it to the LFE channel information).
The way around this would be to not use the Meridian crossover for the mains, but let the NHT do the work through the stereo inputs, even in MCH mode. |
I have the exact same configuration. Works beautifully - no noise, no drop in fidelity whatsoever. Only difference is use a MCH analog preamp instead of a SSP and apply no bass management in my SACD/BR player (I use source direct for SACD which bypasses the DSP). |
