Subwoofer advice please


I'm hoping to find a little bit of clarity with your help.

I've got the itch to buy a pair of modestly priced subs, (SVS SB13 Ultra or REL S/3 SHO).

Here is my dilemma; I use a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP driving a pair of rebuilt and completely upgraded Quad 2805 speakers.

The PrimaLuna has one subwoofer out. Okay, great I think.

My dilemma is when I research proper subwoofer integration almost all posts and articles state that an external crossover is needed to really dial in the sound.

Obviously I can't do that with the PrimaLuna.

It would be less expensive to sell the Quads and upgrade, (a topic I'd love to talk about) than to buy a new front end and hope that the subs worked out for me.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated and if you're ever in SE Washington state I would repay your kind advice with world class bbq and cool, refreshing beverages.

Thank you in advance,

Bob
jzzmusician

Showing 4 responses by willemj

I have owned Quad electrostats for the last 37 years, and most recently the 2805. I think they are the most natural and vanishingly neutral speakers that there are. Some years ago I decided that in our new and rather larger living room we might benefit from a subwoofer (the 2905 was not an option because it would block the view through a large panorama window). So I bought a B&W PV1d as the sub that was claimed by many to integrate best with stats. Yet I was disappointed: the bass was woolly and ill defined, and quite different from the crystal clear sound from the stats. And indeed that is precisely what many say about integration of subs and stats.
So I started reading and doing some research into the science of reproducing lower frequencies, and discovered that room modes may be the issue. What is perceived as slow bass is in fact the lingering on of room modes, and not any mechanical slowness of the subwoofer speaker. The issue with the Quads is that they are dipoles, so they excite far fewer roommodes - that is why they are so clean. As a result the contrast with a monopole sub and the room modes it excites is all too obvious.
So I bought a DSpeaker Antimode 8033 room eq unit. The result was remarkable, and that for such a cheap and easy to install piece of kit. Bass was far better defined and also seemed to extend further down. The take home lesson is that room modes need to be addressed, and there are two ways to do this: multiple subs and room eq, preferably combined. So in your case perhaps an Audiokinesis Swarm or some other system with at least two subs, plus something like the Antimode.
You do not need external filters, unless you also want to high pass the Quads. That is really only useful if you need a louder sound. I have the Antimode connected to the speaker output of the amplifier, via an attenuating cable (the Antimode only takes line level input). From there to the line level input of the sub. No problems there at all.
As for your amplification, I am a bit concerned that you do not have enough power. The 2805s are a pretty inefficient speaker. My original amp with the ELS 57 had been the 2x45 watt Quad 303, but with the 2805s and in a bigger room that was not enough. It was fine at lower level and with not very dynamic music, but with the bigger symphonic repertoire the sound became a bit compressed and strident. So I bought a refurbished 2x140 watt Quad 606-2, for an indeed rather cleaner and more dynamic sound with demanding repertoire. This is essentially the same amplifier as the more recent incarnations, the Quad 909, the QSP and the new Artera. I am even considering getting the Quad QMP monoblocks (perhaps with the forthcoming DSpeaker X4 pre amp with even more eqalization options). However, my first new purchase will probably be a second PV1d, for even smoother bass.
Yes, I know there are (a very small number of) dipole subs. It was Gradient in Finland (not DSpeaker) who made them. However, they were huge and not particularly cheap. I am in Europe, so the GR Research offerings were not really an option. But yes indeed, if you are in North America and have a bit of space, they are interesting.
Thanks for the comment Shadorne. I agree 8 inch is small for a subwoofer driver, but the PV1d has two of them, in opposition to each other. As for alternatives, subwoofers are rather less common in the EU than in the US because our living rooms tend to be a lot smaller, so the choice in the market is more restricted. A home demo of my shortlist was impossible. However, after my initial disappointment, and once I got the PV1d equalized by the Antimode, the sound was in no way bloated. You push the sub into the corner for maximum reinforcement, but the Antimode then flattens the response. The result has been that the bass really seems to come out of the stats, and has the same kind of clarity. It is important to cross them over pretty low: 33 Hz with the 4th order filter slope (and zero degree phase) is what I arrived at for minimum colouration and smearing.
The PV1d also looks very nice in our modern design interior.
I did once (1976) hear stacked 57s and that was impressive. However, with the later designs this is indeed not a good idea. Instead, if one wants to stay with stats only, the solution would be to go for the bigger 6 panel models (they are not even that much more expensive). As I wrote, however, they would have been too tall in my case. I find that the smaller model is visually intrusive enough as it is. Fortunately, the equalized sub route worked very well for me, and I am sure multiple equalized subs work even better.
I found this interesting discussion: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=150264.40