Subwoofer advice

Hello pkatsuleas,

     I notice you seem to have 2 amp setups, a tube setup with a Jolida tube integrated amp and a solid-state separates setup with a ss Schiit preamp and a ss McCormak .5 amp.  
     All good stuff but I need a bit more info before I can offer meaningful advice:
1. Do you alternate use between both of these systems?

2. Are they used for music only or do you also use for some form of home theater audio?

3. What's your budget range minimum to maximum?

4. REL are nice subs but there are other high quality subs at more reasonable prices.  Are you willing to use other brands of subs?

5. Are your speakers set up along the long 30' wall or the shorter 14' wall?

Thanks,
  Tim

Hello pkatsuleas,

    Atmasphere's suggestion of the 4-sub Audio Kinesis Swarm bass system would definitely provide near state of the art bass performance throughout your entire room and integrate seamlessly with your Snells but you'd need to stretch your budget to about $3,000. 
     I own this system and can attest to it being a great performer, likely the last sub bass system you'll ever need to buy since it will work extremely well with virtually any pair of speakers and in any room.  This is your ideal solution.
     If you can't currently afford this and you mainly just want good bass response at your listening seat, however, a pair of good quality subs will also provide good bass performance that has good integration with your main speakers if positioned and configured optimally.  This requires optimally positioning each sub utilizing the crawl method and optimally setting the volume, crossover frequency and phase control settings on each sub.  The advantage of the Swarm system is that the 3 configuration settings only need to be set once collectively for all 4 subs on the supplied 1,000 watt class AB sub amp/control unit.
     To give you an overall summary of your options, here's a list of 3 possible sub options listed from least expensive and lowest bass performance quality to most expensive and highest bass performance quality:

1.  Good Bargain system- a pair of SVS SB-1000 (sealed subs) or PB-1000 (ported subs) for about $1,000/pair.  These are bargain priced but very good quality subs that have the 3 crucially important configuration controls of volume, crossover frequency and phase; any subs you decide to purchase absolutely must have at least these 3 controls.

2. Better Middle-Range system- as mcreyn suggested, a pair of either Rythmil F12 subs for $1,960/pair or SVS PB3000 subs for $1,999/pair. Utilizing higher quality and priced pairs of subs will provide noticeably deeper bass extension as well as bass that is faster, smoother, more accurate, more detailed, more dynamic and more natural.

3. Best Performance system- Audio Kinesis 4-sub Swarm for $3,000. This option will clearly outperform the other options since it will provide deep, fast, smooth, accurate, highly detailed and dynamic bass that will be perceived as the most effortless, the most natural and the best integrated with your main speakers. It will also be the most convenient option to configure since all settings are made once on the amp/control unit for the 4 subs collectively rather than separately on each individual sub. 

Good luck,
  Tim

   
        

Hello pkatsuleas,

     I just wanted to give you a few tips I've learned about getting good in-room bass response over many years of personal research and, probably most useful, personal experience.
    In general, 2 subs will perform about twice as well as 1 sub and 4 subs, configured in what's called a distributed bass array (DBA) system, will perform about twice as well as 2 subs.  It's been scientifically proven, by acoustic experts such as Dr. Earl Geddes and Dr. Frank Toole among others, that any subs added beyond 4 will provide only smaller marginal increases in performance.  This is the reason all in one DBA kits like the Audio Kinesis Swarm utilize 4 subs.
     Atmasphere obviously understands this since he provided this
 link to the AK Swarm system:
http://www.audiokinesis.com/

     Here's a link to an Absolute Sound review of the Swarm which I found very accurate to my experiences using this product in my room and system:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/
     This will give you a good idea of what to expect if you decide to invest in a multiple award winning bass system.
     Positioning of subs is critical to obtain optimum performance no matter how many subs utilized. I usually use and suggest using the crawl method (google it for a good description) since it works extremely well, requires no expensive and complicated equipment and it's free.  
     It's also very important to have variable volume, crossover frequency and phase controls on whatever subs or complete bass system you choose.  For best integration of the bass with your main speakers, I've found it best to set the volume and crossover frequency controls as low as possible with the bass still sounding good to you (smooth, detailed and natural with realistic impact and dynamics that you can feel as well as hear.) The phase control should be 180 degree adjustable and set at the position that the bass sounds subjectively best to you.  
     Once you decide which sub or subs you want to buy, I can offer more detailed advice.


Later,

Tim 
    





   

Hello pkatsuleas,

     You are correct, all of my posts are just my opinions based on my knowledge and experience unless specifically stated otherwise.
     I don’t consider myself an expert on subs or attaining the best in-room bass response. I would more accurately describe myself as a music and movie lover with a strong interest in high quality equipment that’s capable of playing back both in high fidelity.
     I’ve been enjoying various models of Magnepan speakers for many years and have been attempting, for about the same span of years, to supplement what I perceive as their poor quality of bass power, impact and dynamics (excluding their top models) with various levels of success until I employed the 4-sub distributed bass array (DBA) concept in my room. The Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA system I now use in my system is by far the best bass system, or combination of subs, that I’ve ever experienced in any of my systems.
     The bass is smooth, fast, powerful, dynamic, detailed, natural, seamlessly integrated with my main speakers and overall what I consider near state of the art bass performance in my room for both music and HT. As I understand the DBA concept, the sota results I achieved through this system can be obtained in virtually any room, with any main speakers and without the need for room treatments or room correction.
     All of the above are the reasons I’m such a 4-sub DBA system fan and highly recommend it on so many posts here ad nauseum. This is the best solution I’m aware of for your situation.
     As I’ve stated, however, I believe you’ll also be able to get very good bass performance in your room using just a pair of properly positioned subs if you only require this at a single listening position in your room and not throughout the entire room.
     You’ve already received many good suggestions on this thread for high quality pairs of subs you could use. I thought phusis’s suggestion of DIY horn subs was the most interesting. I’ve read good reviews on these but have never personally heard a pair.


Best of luck,
  Tim

Hello pkatsuleas,

     Yes, that is a beast at 90 lbs and it's rated down to 16 Hz but I think it's a good choice.  
    Using a single high quality sub should provide good bass at your listening position if it's positioned in your room and configured properly. 
     I'd suggest positioning the sub optimally by using the crawl method:
1. Hookup the sub, set the volume at about 50%(12:00), the crossover freq. to 35 Hz, the phase control to in-phase ("0") and place the sub at your listening position.

2. Play some music with good and repetitive bass with the volume set at about 40%(11:00).

3. Starting at the front right corner of your room, slowly begin walking or crawling on your hands and knees in a counter-clockwise direction until you find an exact spot around the perimeter of your room where the bass sounds best to you (solid, dynamic, smooth, accurate, detailed and natural).  Take your time, and do it multiple times if necessary, to make sure you identify the optimum exact spot.


4.  Once you find the exact spot the bass sounds best to you, move the sub to this exact spot without changing the direction the 12" driver is facing.


5.  Replay the music, sit at your listening seat position and verify the bass sounds very good to you.

6. Adjust the sub Volume, Crossover Freq, and Phase control settings to your preferences and to further optimize performance.

     I believe your results will be very good.  You also have the option to add a 2nd sub in the future which would likely result in the bass being even better in all qualities including even better integrated with your main speakers.  An identical Hsu vtf-3 MK4 would work well but even a different brand or smaller sized 2nd sub would provide the about the same benefits.
    However, I still believe an Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra 4-sub DBA system would provide the best quality bass in your room.  
     I'm located in Noblesville, Indiana, which is just north of Indy and about a 3 hour drive from Chicago.  If it's not too far a drive for you, you're more than welcome to visit and listen to my AK Debra 4-sub DBA system on music and HT.  I'm retired so just pick a date and time that's good for you and send me a pm if you're interested.


Later,
Tim