Dear Erictye: Your Cremona ones crossover 400hz from woofer to midrange and this means that using two active subwoofers in true stereo fashion ( the subs has to have high-pass filter. Rels does not have so you need other option. ) will gives you a great improvement in the quality performance level of your system, not only " more bass " I'm talking of overall quality level because two subs in stereo fashion helps to lower the IMD of your main speakers. You will be amazed when you hear this kind of set-up. Yes, the Cremona's will work as your main-satellite speakers in your " new " bi-amp speaker system.
Please if you have time read these links:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&31&4#31
Now, I use Velodyne subs for very good reasons and between them is that IMHO no one knows more about subs that Velodyne, they have 28+ years designing/build subs and only subs. His patented servo controled/accelerometer sense the woofer response/behavior around 16,000 times every single second and correct when it need it and this helps, between other things , to achieve the lowest THD on any sub out there: lower than 0.5% at 120dbs!!!
You can read more on these subs here:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-dd-18/velodyne-dd-18-subwoofer-first-impressions
No, I don't have any single relationship in anyway with Velodyne other that I'm an owner.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Stanwal: +++++ " I have found it ALWAYS better to run the speakers full range and only use the subs to augment the very bottom end. " +++++
your approach is only an alternative and is the way sub's suppose to use it but things over years changed and there are other choices to do it all depend what we are looking for.
My approach is extremely precise/clear on what are the targets:
1- achieve lower way lower IMD from the main speakers especially those where the woofers crossover 150hz+ ( that's the case with the Cremona. ).
2- achieve better system quality performance level.
3- achieve better bass quality performance level and
4- achieve lowest bass response with the lowest THD.
of course that if you can't understand the critic importance on speaker IMD then you can't understand my approach that's is way different from yours and for very good reasons where the main target is: improve system quality performance level, I'm looking for excellence level nothing less.
Your approach is the old typical one where quality/excellence meaning almost has no real " significance ".
Stanwal IMHO you need to read the links I posted and this one too, if you read with care you could understand what I'm talking about. Btw, you can read in my Agon virtual system how I have that set-up. This is the link of what Vandersteen thinks about:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&84&4#84
Btw, I already try every single approach/alternative to blend and achieve the system excellence quality performance target in my system.
Which are your experiences, I mean with which speakers/system, with the alternative I posted here?
I forgot, IMD is critical on the subject and when goes lower the results is nothing less than astonish.
The other critic area when we are talking on bass response through sub's is THD ( of course if we care about quality level. ) and IMHO we have to look for the lowest THD on subs, because I'm talking of quality not only " bass " ( bass can be achieved by any sub but top quality bass only 2-3 subs out there, of course that we have to be aware/discern what means: bass and low bass quality ).
As I posted Velodyne has the lowest one THD: 0.5% where he JL Audio has: " Distortion: <6.5% THD at 50Hz ", this means that the JL Audio has a " good " but distorted bass response and means too that that spec is at 50hz: we can imply that at around 20hz the JL Audio THD distortion is even higher, maybe in the 12%-15% !!!! against the 0.5% in the Vs.
To choose a subwoofer for atwo channel audio system is not and easy task is a seriously choice if we want the best system performance. It needs know-how according our each one targets.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friends: IMHO I think that in the subwoofer audio topic there is a lower knowledge level ( more ignorance. ) that we could think.
Read this link in this same forum:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1322145485&openflup&9&4#9
where he stated: " +++ Subwoofers are more trouble than rewarding. " ++++
and like this there are alot of posts/threads on the subject where we can read about that low knowledge level on the whole subject.
I think some people talk about subs with out knowing what they are talking about.
If we know about subs this sole " move/play " IMHO can give us more rewardings that any other change in a decent audio systems for the subs kind of money invested.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Erictye: +++++ " I am looking for synergy with my system... " +++++
absolutely right and more than the whole system must be IMHO " synergy with the Cremonas " and this IMHO too means understand in precise way where is the weak area of those speakers and how improve it through subs integration.
My advise is that try to understand the IMD subject and after that decide about. No, IMHO the Cremona subs is not the best " road " even that because is a Sonus Faber product that could means synergy. Take this as a true statement is a mistake: synergy IMHO is understand the specific needs of those speakers and the subs that mate it in the best way.
Of course that you can go for the Cremona subs but nothing can tell you for sure that will be a the best match.
The subject is deeper than that especially if you care about quality performance level.
I don't care what will be your choice that care is for you but my advise has very good reasons that I can't read in any of all the other posts here, maybe because all those persons can't yet understand the real use of subs in a two channel audio home system. Again, IMHO you need to understand in precise way the whole subject.
It is not whom is right or has reason in this thread, it is to know about and that's all.
Anyway your call.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Johnnyb53: Design and build speakers is a totally independent audio design area, a different totally different area/subject.
Subwoofer design is a especialized area where you need different level knowledge that for speaker designs. Subwoofers IMHO is not part of the whole Speaker Area/Market is IMHO a totally independent area.
It is like a tonearm and TT: both different, with different targets and different needs.
As I said the subs subject is an especilized one and no I don't think that the Cremona subs can be better match for the Cremona speakers that and aftermarket one like the Velodynes or even the JL ones.
Till today I know no single speaker manufacturer that designed/build a subwoofer that can not only outperform but match better to his own speakers that those ones named here.
Many of you don't think so but subwoofers is not only an especialized audio area but a serious subject that needs good knowledge level to make the right decicions when we want to integrated in our home audio systems.
Yes, the subwoofer for a two channel systems is a misunderstood whole subject. I learned after several mistakes and that's why I posted what I posted and I can tell you that no one can argue about.
Till today I did not found out any person that integrated subs in true stereo fashion with afater market units that is not satisfied or left it.
Read this link where Halcro explain why he left subs:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&207&4#207
and then ( one year latter ) read this one when he take the " sub-buss " again and why:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&322&4#322
and this is only an example in that thread where there are more as are outside that thread.
My advise is try to learn about as I did and as I follow learning each day on almost every audio subject and no I'm not an expert on any audio subject, I'm sharing my first hand experiences about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Tpreaves: No, certainly I did not.
Now, when you are looking for excellence and nothing less that excellence ( I mean on system quality performance. ) then you have a hard work ( like me. ) where we have to research, test, mistakes and learn. This cycle repeats several a lot of times till we learn an achieve the target and then the next audio link.
It took me 3-4 years to learn about subs and to learn why everything we learned about was wrong.
The main lesson I learned was and is that a subs integration is not for more deep bass but to lower the IMD distortion type of the main speakers and then comes the intrinsic subs advantages but these ones are IMHO not the main targets. Main target is to lower speakers IMD: this sole " characteristic " makes the difference for the better if you can discern about.
Main differences between two or more different audio systems is the knowledge level of each one system owner.
In audio as in other life areas know-how is the name of the game.
I have a very simple " method " to improve my knowledge level in audio: I always question every audio subject know-how I had/have with simple questions: is there a better way to do it/to achieve it? or what is wrong with that? or why thing have to be in that way? or is it true?
Many audio information that we already have and that's our each one background is absolutely wrong and many are only false myths that the AHEE by convenience teached and tech to us.
The subs subject is a clear example of that: where that is not what we always thinked.
Anyway, mi message here is to improve each single day " walking " with an open mind to learn and learn from any one at any moment in any place.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Johnnyb53: Please don't misunderstood me: I'm not telling that SF does not know how to design/build subs but specialized subs manufacturer IMHO have deeper knowledge about.
Maybe the main challenge to any sub other that goes deep on the 20hz and down is to handle its frequency range with aplomb and that's means with the same aplomb/accuracy that the main speakers and this means with low low THD distortion type.
All what we have on audio and audio systems IMHO is inside DISTORTIONS whole subject. A better quality performer system that other system is better only/mainly because has lower DISTORTIONS at each link in the audio system chains than the other.
The home audio system " enemy " ( other that each one of us it self. ) to beat has a name: Distortions, as we go lower on system overall distortions as better system quality perfromance level we achieve.
When I listen an audio home systems first target is not to hear how good it sounds but look for distortions: which kind and where.
On subs is the same we have to look ( everything the same ) for the lowest subs distortions figures.
Velodyne is my bench-mark with that glorious lower than 0.5% on THD. This measure of distortion can be achieved only because Velodyne engineering level and deep research over time where brought its servo-accelerator that sense/watch 16,000 times each second the woofer movements/behavior to avoid: guess what? yes DISTORTIONS.
Johnny, when I was searching and learning about what to choose for my system I emailed to any single subs manufaturer asking for information on performance. I asked the sub THD at 120db at 20hz, 110db and 100db and guess what? no one but Velodyne gives me that information.
All answer me and give me several information around that THD measures but the true is that no one even had on hand.
Don't trust in me: send an email to SF asking the same. Could be interesting for all to read which is the Cremona sub's THD and if you can ask for its frequency response range because in its site they don't mentioned or at least I can't find out.
Yes, Johnnyb53 we have to start to learn about distortions from a different point of view that we are accustom to.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Johnnyb53: I don't want that you " buy " nothing I said it. This another example: Velodyne worked in the past and designed a pair of normal speakers that they marketed for no more than two years but fail to really introduce in the speaker's market and everyone knew Velodyne as a good subwoofer manufacturer.
Believe me, is more easy to hire J.Curl or other electronics designers that a top subwoofer designer: because there is not!.
Velodyne is IMHO absolutely superior to JL or REL and maybe (I because I don't hear it yet ) to SF too.
Every sub out there makes: boom boom, my point is not that but that that boom boom can be accurate and with the lowest distortion you can achieve and these two targets are the ones that makes the difference.
Now, you have to be prepared to discern and be aware about those differences and you know what: it is not an easy task to discern on that bass frequency range, you need to be trained if not almost everything will be for you: boom boom.
Specs on subs are really important because we need to know the sub behavior under some circumstances and when we are talink of Velodyne or other top sub as the ones named here we are talking not on a " new kid on the block " but we are talking of top knowledge with patents in the product design that speaks for it self.
The subjecvt here when talking about subs is what are you looking for: boom booommm or quality level performance in your system through improving the main speakers own performance along the best you can get from subs works.
Rel, SF or JL has nothing to control the woofer behavior but the inside amps that are not enough to achieve 0.5% on THD, this is vital/crucial when you are speaking about quality.
To know if those better numbers means something you have to have first hand experiences between all those different subs, there is no other way and remember that we are not in the 70's, things already improve about and about the importance of several numbers out there in each audio link in each one audio system chain.
Of course that if you are of the people that only say: " I like it " " I like what I heard " then we have nothing to talk because you really don't care on what you are hearing and my self always care on what I'm hearing.
Johnny, I don't care about Velodyne. I take it as an example not because I own it but only to exemply the importance to inform on subs before any choice could make it.
Subs as a whole is a " new product " " a new kid in the/b " where exist a lot of misunderstanding and where we have to take care about.
Good that you already know what I posted. What I can't understand is that if you already have all the knowledge level about why disagree with no real and precise arguments.
All what I posted not came from reading here or by my imagination but by experiences a lot of experiences in different audio systems.
Don't " buy " nothing but at least give us your proved arguments. I don't care whom has reason but I like to learn and and want it because certainly could be I can be wrong and need to re-set.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Fundsgon: According to Velodyne the SMS-1 has a fixed ( 80 hz. ) high-pass ( http://www.velodyne.com/pdf/sms-1/sms-1_guide.pdf ) so you can roll-off the bas in your SF speakers and use it with two Rels or the other option you named: two Velodynes.
I never heard that REL model but we have to take in count the very good quality sound on those SF ( I owned one of its first monitors and were impressive: Extrema. ) and IMHO the Velodynes could match in better way the SF quality performance level but all depend on yoor targets/priorities.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Erictye: IMHO there is almost no-so big for " these speakers " but the other way around: too small.
The DD-15 could works very good with your Cremona's, I can't see any trouble about and when you have two subs in true stereo fashion you can place it almost " everywhere ": see my Agon virtual to see that the place/room position of mines is not " orthodox " one.
If I was you and due that are on " sale " I just go a head. DEven if you don't like it ( that I seriously doubt. ) you always can put on sale with almost no lose because everyone wants it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Johnnyb53: +++++ " A lot of people are finding that running the mains full range helps get a good blend in many cases. " +++++
absolutely right but all those people have that kind of set up because that was they learned through the AHEE and that's the old and IMHO wrong way to set up subs for a two channels system when you have passive speakers that crossover 100hz and up.
You posted you already know everything I posted so please think on what you are saying because seems to me that as in the Analog forum you are biased " against " not what I post but against " me ", I don't care but this can't make a good thing for you.
Johnny, maybe I'm wrong about that " biased against... " but if not : how could you explain that in the longest and dedicated Agon thread about MM/MI cartridges you almost don't posted when you are an avid fan of MM cartridges. Even that I invite you to share your value experiences about and help all the other people that need does experiences?
Anyway, this is a free forum and as always my posts are always trying to help other persons and not the: who win attitude so often in these kind of forums.
Regards and enoy the music,
R. |
Dear Daveyf: Options always are open, IMHO all depend on each one targets/priorities on quality level performance.
+++++ " my mains (SF GH's) are lighting fast and I know of no large driver ( we're talking 10" and above) subs that are quick enough to match these mains, " +++++
this link touch that " myth ":
http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Fundsgon: You can get these couple for less that you stated:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1327021301&/Velodyne-DD-12-Piano-gloss-bla
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1328659975&/Velodyne-DD-12-Piano-gloss-bla
I think that you can make some money when you sold the REL.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Daveyf: IMHO it is not only the driver dimension/size but which kind and size of magnet, woofer build material, build shape and overall construction and build excecution. In the other side and between other things the amp damping factor count too.
Now, IMHO there are no perfect drivers and one way or the other exist trade-offs and our choice will depend on our targets because if we want " flat " bass frequency down to 18-20hz then a 8" driver can't do it.
Normally when we are asking for a sub we are asking for that low kind of bass.
IMHO low bass is the frequency range more difficult to achieve/reproduce on accurate way and that's why I posted the importance to analyze/research in deep before any choice.
The subs subject and understanding on two channel system is so " new " that even some subs manufacturers has no clear and precise answer about, almost all take the add-on subs mainly as the traditional way: as a bass re-inforcement system but for me and my frist hand experiences with different audio systems is that that " traditional " way of think regarding subs is wrong or at least incomplete way incomplete.
That's why RELs has no high-pass function.
I'm not sure how good are the SF people about but maybe if you ask them how to mate their Cremonas with subs maybe ( maybe not. )they could tell you that the Cremonas in full range fashion and subs as " only " reinforcement bass.
Anyway, the subject is open to questions/answers and obviously IMHO there is no one answer for every single system/room circumstances.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
