subs for Sonus Faber Cremona M floor standing

JLs not only have beastly build quality, they have a suite of controls and features to blend the sub with your speakers *and* the room--adjustment controls for continuously variable phase control over a wide range, volume, crossover, a polarity switch, and ARO (automatic room optimization) complete with calibrated microphone.

I've heard a pair of Magnepan 20.1's augmented with a pair of Fathom F212's and the integration was completely seamless. Although the JLs are capable of great power and thunder, they are also the best I've heard on seamlessly integrating for a music system and never calling attention to themselves.

I have an audiobuddy who uses the $679 sealed SVS to augment his Magnepan 1.7s and he likes it a lot. The SVS's seem to be a pretty good value. Their 13" driver reminds me of the JL approach, and their $2K 3-port model (using that 13" driver) has four rolloff profiles, depending on how many ports you plug. All 3 ports plugged creates a gentle rolloff that extends usable FR to around 14 Hz. That would be a good config for music. The gentle rolloff also avoids the big port resonance boom, so again, it's better for blending for music than with all ports firing.

Sonus Faber makes a Cremona Subwoofer M in their Cremona Collection.

That seems like a good place to start for system matching.

No, IMHO the Cremona subs is not the best " road " even that because is a Sonus Faber product that could means synergy. Take this as a true statement is a mistake: synergy IMHO is understand the specific needs of those speakers and the subs that mate it in the best way.

Are you serious? If the Cremona M Sub isn't a good match for the Cremona M Floorstanding Speaker, then Franco Serblin and his whole operation should just pack up and go home.

There are several 3rd party subs that would work well--ones that offer the tools you need for a good blend--crossover points, continuously variable phase control, variable damping, and especially automated setup with EQ.

Still, the Cremona M sub is designed by people who know the Cremona M speaker's sensitivity, dispersion pattern, rolloff profile, crossover points, rise time, impulse response, and phase angles. I'm going to make a wild guess that they took those factors into account when designing a sub for it, especially when you consider that SF is known for a seamless, well-integrated house sound.

12-08-11: Erictye
... I am sure SF subwoofer is exceptional. Why is it that over half the reviews out there mate the SF with a Rel sub?

Maybe because REL--like SF--is also distributed in the US by Sumiko, and until SF came up with their own sub it was the package that the distributor--Sumiko--supplied to the reviewer. Also, since REL has a full line of subs, it was relatively easy to match a sub to a given speaker line (such as a T8 to the Toy series). With that in mind, the better question might be, "Why, with REL as a sister company, did Sonus Faber take on the development and marketing costs to come up with their own Cremona M subwoofer?

Raul: For all your words you haven't told me a thing I don't already know. However, I can't buy your dismissal of a general speaker maker as having a disadvantage in subwoofer design given that any company can hire just about any designer it wants. John Curl designs electronics for Parasound. Nelson Pass has done it for Adcom. D'Agostino desgined for Aragon. Hsu designed (or consulted) on the Outlaw subwoofer designs. I have no doubt that Sonus Faber hired all the specialized help it needed to come up with a subwoofer to meet their high standards of musical coherency and seamless integration--the areas most elusive in matching subs to mains.

As for Velodyne, its accelerometer/feedback design and low advertised THD is essentially an electro-mechanical version of the negative feedback loops used in amplifier design. Feedback loops were used to excess in the "THD wars" of the late '70s receivers, and only resulted in lower numbers--not better sound--to sell more receivers.

I'm not saying Velodyne's accelerometer is an ineffective gimmick, just that it doesn't prove that it's superior to JL, REL--or Sonus Faber.

If you're going to have matching subs, then get *matching subs*. The R505 is possibly discontinued, but is fortunately available for half price at Vanns.com. And if you want the easier blend, get the Velodyne SMS-1.

Also, you probably don't need to run your Cremonas above a high-pass filter. A lot of people are finding that running the mains full range helps get a good blend in many cases.

12-14-11: Erictye
Well just an update, looks like I am picking up a JL F113 this weekend.

Oooh. I think you're going to be really happy with that. Congratulations.

12-05-11: Stanwal
... I have found it ALWAYS better to run the speakers full range and only use the subs to augment the very bottom end. True, you don't relieve the amp of some work but on the other hand you are not running the signal through another crossover which will invariably degrade the sound. If you like the sound you now have and just wish to augment the bass I suggest that this is the way to go. If you want to play louder with more boom go the other way.

This is predominantly my experience as well. I have done eight different subwoofer installations, and in most cases (especially for music-only) I get the best sound running the mains full range and leaving them out of an additional crossover, while blending in the sub from the bottom up. The only system where I use a high pass crossover to the main speakers is in my home theater setup. In that case, the crossover is to take the strain off the smaller center and surround speakers, but I still run the L-R floorstanders (Mirage M5si's, good to around 26 Hz) full range. And I get the best overall sound and clarity setting the sub crossover to 40 Hz.

For my current 2-channel music-only system I run Mirage OMD-15s full range and use a pair of Mirage MM8's crossed at 50 Hz to augment the low bass only.

Running the mains full range seems counter-intuitive, but even running them that way I still experience more 3-D imaging--the main musical images pop out into 3-D, and the dynamics are subjectively improved. Again, counter-intuitive, but it works for me.

12-17-11: Erictye
Well I just set up the sub for about 20 minutes now. I had a DBX drive rack PA kicking around. I had to run some cheaper lines as my Purist are rca only. ... I need to do a bit of fine tuning yet. I have a question. On my C2300 I have to outputs to go to amps. Can I run the sub amp directly to the second set of outputs thus eliminating the DBX drive rack. What are the pros, cons doing it either way.

How are you using the DBX Drive Rack PA now in relation to your Cremona Ms and the F113 sub? Are you using it for room correction, as a high pass crossover to the Cremonas, or both? If you're using it for high pass, before you try much else, try running the Cremonas full range, and blend in the F113 from the bottom until you notice it, and then back off until it totally blends. It won't cost you anything and it may make wiring for a second sub much easier.

12-18-11: Erictye
Ok this part of wiring is new to me so bear with me. Running full range... that would be running SF and sub out of the back of the C2300 and removing the CBX from the equation. Do I hook up the sub into the output 2? I also just came across some diagrams as well. Or Is this what you mean?

http://www.audioc.com/library1/images/hookup/mhookupe.gif

Yes, that's basically it. Send one preamp signal to your amp and another to the sub. Let the sub's built-in crossover, volume, and phase controls (plus its room setup software) do the heavy lifting.

Your C2300 has multiple outputs, both in single-ended and balanced versions. Run one stereo pair of interconnects directly to your MC2102 amp and another pair directly to your JL F113. When you add a second sub, connect one sub interconnect to each of the subs, using the sub's left channel input for each. The JL is wired so that if you use the left input only it functions as a mono input. It's very simple that way, and you could use balanced interconnects for either or both runs as both your amp and the JL can take either kind.

You must have a beautiful sounding setup. I can't think of a much better combo for musical satisfaction than Sonus Fabers and McIntosh tube electronics.

12-18-11: Erictye
Pshaw!! I have heard Krell and Bryston with the Sonus and although very nice in a solid state kind of way... but I believe tubes rule. Out of curiosity, what system would you recommend?

Honestly my ultimate dream system could easily be what you have, or an expansion on it, such as a more powerful Mac tube amp powering the Stradivari Homages. Also, your preamp/amp/speaker combo is capable of such high resolution musicality that I hope you have a nice turntable rig to hear its full capabilities. In that case I'd be happy with a DPS/Ayre turntable and tonearm, or something from Clearaudio in the same general price range.

Other gear I like is Wilson powered by Audio Research or VTL (they also like tubes a lot). I haven't heard the TADs yet, but based on the desriptions I think I'd like those too.

I also like Magnepans when properly set up, and they really take off when accompanied by a pair of JL subs.