rjb1101,
If you set it up just so, you could become the first human in the history of our species to be able to hear deep bass in stereo.
Where'd you get the idea that stereo subs would be a good idea? Or even discernable.
Sorry, stereo deep bass is a myth so it's probably best to keep your expectations very low to avoid the inevitable disappointment.
It's not too late to save some time and money and abandon this nonsense.
Tim |
Hi rjb1101,
Recording engineers understand that human hearing is very good at perceiving the directionality or where in their environment mid-range and treble sounds are emanating from but very poor in perceiving the directionality of deep bass sounds.
This is why they often combine all the bass at or below a specific frequency and record this combined deep bass only on the left channel. So, even if we could determine the directionality of deep bass frequencies, the vast majority of recordings do not have deep bass on both l+r channels when played back by home stereo systems. Configuring one’s stereo playback system with separate subs for each channel, therefore, is not a very good method of achieving good bass response in a home environment.
The best method I’ve thus far discovered for very good bass response in virtually any room is the distributed bass array method sold commercially as the Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra systems that sell for about $3,000 for a complete system. These systems are almost identical and consist of 4 (3’Hx1’Wx1’D) subs and a 1,000 watt sub amp. Here is an Absolute Sound review of the Swarm system:
www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/
I have no financial interest in either system but I am a very satisfied user of the Debra system.
I suggest you’ll achieve much better bass response in your room with one of these systems than ’stereo subs’ are capable of.
Good luck,
Tim |
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Use of multiple subs can minimize rooms nodes so, depending on the room, it can be an excellent solution to achieving flat in-room low frequency response."
Hi cleeds,
Strictly speaking, your statement is true and has been scientifically and independently verified and documented by multiple acoustic engineers, including Dr. Geddes and Dr. O'Toole among others. They've both published white papers on the subject if you're interested. However, you failed to mention some details about their findings that are important to this discussion and for rjb1101 to know about.
These scientists, through extensive testing and measuring, discovered that room bass nodes were consistently reduced as the number of subs was increased in a given room. Yes, 2 subs are technically 'multiple subs' but they found that the use of 2 subs, while resulting in better in-room bass response than just a single sub if properly positioned, had the least affect on reducing room bass nodes. They basically concluded that the more subs in a given room the better the bass response becomes. Not very surprising, right?
Of course, they realized there's a practical limit to the number of subs people will accept in their rooms. So they further stated that 3 to 4 subs, if properly positioned, would result in the elimination of the vast majority of bass room nodes in most rooms. This is the basis for Audio Kinesis utilizing 4 subs in both their distributed bass array systems.
There is also a precise method of positioning each of the 4 subs for optimum bass response in any room that is based on Geddes and O'Toole's scientific research. It's detailed in both Audio Kinesis manuals and I'll describe it if anyone is interested.
." stereo deep bass is a myth ...
Not exactly. Depending on the phase of the LF signals, it is absolutely possible to hear bass in stereo."
I have no knowledge of your statement being true and Dr. Geddes and Dr. O'Toole make no mention in any of their white papers of the ability of humans to perceive bass in stereo. Most of the research I've read actually concludes the opposite; that humans have great difficulty discerning where LF sound waves are emanating from.
I know I don't perceive LF sound waves are emanating from any of my 4 subs even though my listening chair sits between the 2 rear subs against opposing l+r walls in my 23 x 16' room and the 2 front subs are along my front wall -one behind each l+r speaker. I perceive the bass as emanating from appropriate instruments and voices within the sound stage illusion I perceive as in front of me.
I willingly concede, however, that what I perceive as bass emanating from specific spots within the sound stage illusion is actually a form of perceiving stereo bass. So, even though I'm unaware of any scientific proof verifying it, I believe hearing stereo bass is possible with the assistance of our brains because I've experienced it in my own system. Sorry, thinking out loud.
From my experience, I think a more accurate statement is that we hear and feel the bass which our ears/brains perceive and assign or interpret as emanating from the proper instruments, voices and positions within the sound stage illusion our ears/brains are also perceiving and interpreting.
Tim |
Hi ejr1953,
I think we're stating similar but slightly different things.
You're stating you've been able to perceive 'stereo bass' in your system through the use of only 2 matching subs.
I'm stating I've been able to perceive 'stereo bass' in my system through the use of 4 matching subs precisely positioned.
I don't question your results but I'm curious about and would like to learn a few things about your system compared to mine:
How did you determine the best room position for each of your subs?
Do you have equally good bass response throughout most of your room or is the bass response optimized for your listening position?
My thought is that you've optimized the bass response at a single listening position which is a significant accomplishment but bass response at other positions in your room are likely not optimized since the vast majority of room bass nodes are not eliminated with 2 subs in a given room but are with 4 subs strategically positioned. You may not be concerned about this but I was striving for good bass response at all 7 of my room's seating positions for both music and ht.
Please don't misunderstand my intentions. I'm not concerned with claims that my system performs better than yours but rather with providing the OP with useful information about how 2 sub systems are not able to eliminate the vast majority of bass room nodes as 4 sub system are and, therefore, are unable to provide good bass response throughout virtually the entire room. I think it's best he receives accurate info and let him decide for himself based on his circumstances and preferences.
I just want to make sure he doesn't get the impression that a 2 sub system will perform equally as well as a 4 sub system.
Enjoy,
Tim
|
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Deep bass is not directional, and that has been shown by a lot of research. Yet, as some have argued here, it may sound as if these deep bass notes do indeed emanate from different speakers. The explanation is that the human brain uses the upper harmonics from the main speakers to locate the deep bass tones."
Hi willemj,
Excellent post that really clarifies the forces at work. I was starting to think that deep bass may be directional because I'm able to perceive the locations of deep bass instruments within my sound stage illusion in a very consistent and convincing manner.
Your explanation, that the human brain uses the upper harmonics of the deep bass emanating from my main speakers to locate the deep bass tones within the sound stage illusion, really helped me understand the forces at work and the reasons for my confusion. All 4 of my subs are run as mono signals and mentally making sense of the deep bass localization that I am perceiving was getting difficult. Our brains may be the most valuable component in all our systems. It's all clear to me now, Thank you.
I'm not aware of the OP's, rjb1101's, room size and budget so I'm not sure if he even has the space or funds for the ideal solution of a 4 sub distributed bass array system but agree that 2 subs are better than 1 as many have already stated.
Assuming he wants to use just 2 subs , I think it's more important for good bass response that there are 2 subs instead of 1 than it is that they match.
If he's mainly concerned with good bass response at his listening position, I'd suggest he run them as mono and position them in the following manner:
1. Position sub#1 at his listening position and play music with good and repetitive bass.
2. Slowly walk across your front wall from right to left and find the exact location that the bass on the music sounds best to you and place sub#1 at this spot. If you prefer accurate and natural bass, avoid placing sub#1 in a corner.
3. Place sub#2 at your listening position and play the music with the good and repetitive bass again
4. Slowly walk along your left wall, from front to back, and find the exact location that the bass on the music sounds best to you. Place sub#2 at this spot again avoiding corner placement if possible.
5. Sit at your listening position and play the same music again. If the bass response is not very good, start again from the beginning. Remember, even small adjustments in positioning can affect bass performance at your listening position.
In most rooms, 2 subs perform best with an asymmetrical positioning scheme; that is, with one along the front wall and one along a side wall rather than symmetrically with both placed along the front wall with one placed behind each speaker.
If you really prefer both subs along your front wall behind your speakers, however, you could try this by substituting the following for step #4 above:
Slowly walk along your front wall, from sub#1 to the left, and find the exact location that the bass on the music sounds best to you. Place sub#2 at this spot again avoiding corner placement if possible.
The only way you'll discover which positioning scheme sounds best to you in your room is to try them both.
I'm almost certain that you'd get better bass response in your room, and certainly better bass response throughout your entire room and not just at your listening position,if you utilized 4 subs in your room rather than 2, but you may have constraints I'm unaware of. I hope this post was helpful to you.
Best wishes,
Tim |
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The Antimode engineers recommend corner placement for maximum reinforcement and minimal dips/nulls. That position unfortunately also gives the biggest peaks, but you can deal with those with the room eq."
Hi willemj,
Yes, I've found that corner placement of subs results in the most bass due to the long bass sound waves reflecting off of both walls in a corner. This often results in bass peaks (exaggerated bass) at spots in the room. That's why I advised against it although some may like it.
I've found avoiding placing subs in the corner results in more accurate and natural bass response which I prefer.
I remember you mentioning your Antimode DSP room eq unit before . I use zero DSP, eq and bass room treatments in my room since I haven't found a need to since employing the 4 sub system. It's almost magical how this system eliminates bass nodes in the room and just provides accurate, natural and, when the source calls for it, very deep and powerful bass on both music and ht.
|
Hi rjb1101,
Overall, that's good news. I still think you'll get the best bass response in your room by following the sub locating method I outlined on my 1/28/18 post.
Since REL has confirmed what you already knew (that the T/1 is a better performer than your older REL) that means the T/1 will likely be the predominate influence on bass response performance you perceive in your room. I'd therefore suggest that you consider your T/1 as sub#1 and locate it in your room 1st with all its controls set at midpoint settings.
Even though your older REL is not as good of a performer, I still think its inclusion as sub#2 (also with all is controls set at midpoint settings) will help reduce bass nodes in your room and result in better bass response overall if you follow the setup procedure faithfully.
Just in case you're not completely satisfied with overall bass response from your listening position after completing the setup procedure, you may want to try increasing the volume on sub#2 by about 5% and repeating steps 4 and 5.
Then keep doing this, increasing sub#2's volume by about 5% until you are completely satisfied wth the overall bass response in your room.
If you never reach a point of complete satisfaction with the overall bass response. I think you'll only have a few additional options to try:
1. Sell your older REL, upgrade to 2 T/1 subs and start the sub lcating procedure from the beginning.
2. Add a third REL as sub#3, set all 3 subs at midpoint settings and start the sub locating procedure from the beginning.
3. Sell both your subs, by an Audio Kinesis 4-sub Swarm or Debra system, set it up, sit back and enjoy great bass response in your system(s) for the rest of your life no matter what stereo 2 channel or surround speakers you use and no matter what room you're ever using.
I completely understand not being able to afford, and then not wanting to spend, $3K for a state of the art bass system. I actually started out many years ago in my search for better bass by borrowing a 2nd sub from a friend and spent many hours researching about room bass response on-line and experimenting with positioning these subs trying to attain better bass in my system.
The best bass I ever attained with 2 subs was with 1 along the front wall and 1 along a side wall 2/3rds of the way from the front wall, fairly close to my listening position. I was honestly satisfied with the bass response in this setup for awhile for both music and ht.
I never tried 3 subs but was seriously considering buying 2 new hi-end subs (like JL, Vandersteen or REL) when I became aware of the distributed bass array systems using 3-4 subs. I increasingly became tempted to try one the more I read about them, by the great professional reviews and by James Romeyn at James Romeyn-Music and Audio, LLC in Utah who offered me a 45 day free in-home trial on the Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub system he sells.
I still considered $3K a lot of money for good bass but rationalized it by the fact I would spend that much or more for 2 of the larger traditional hi-end subs I was considering and there was no financial risk.
I had my friend. Dave, help me faithfully position each sub according to the procedure. The result was that 2 subs wound up along the front wall (one behind each of my panel front l+r spkrs a few feet away from each corner) and the other 2 along the side walls (one on each wall a few feet away from the rear corners).
We were both a bit lazy after hours of moving the 4 50lb. subs around my room and hooking everything up. So we just threw in that Brad Pitt tank movie I had watched the night before in the Bluray player to test things out a bit. It only took listening to one of the first previews, of the movie Whiplash about a drummer, to have us both smiling and gushing about the great bass response. Bass so 'live in the room' real, sounding so pitch perfect good and solidly physically felt in our chests that we both were left just shaking our heads in disbelief with the dopiest smiles on our faces.
With this system's performance in the 2 years since, I don't think I can overstate how good the bass response is; I could go on and on but I've done so long enough and will just state that, in my experience in my room, the difference in performance of 2 decent subs and the 4-sub Audio Kinesis Debra system driven by a dedicated 1,000 watt amp is like night and day.
I related the above to emphasize how well the distributed bass array 4-sub system actually performs but I realize my words will always fall short of experiencing one properly setup. I can assure you you'll not have a desire or need to ever consider buying another sub again.
Sorry about all the superlatives and going on so long,
Tim |
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3k isn't really out of my budget, but I was planning on using that $3k to split my 2ch setup from my HT setup and I don't currently have enough space for 4 subs as I live in a 1 bedroom apartment. Plus those won't pass the WAF and toddler test with the exposed front facing cones."
Hi rjb1101,
I completely understand having big system plans, living in a smaller place, being concerned about the WAF and having a little smelly or two running around. Hang in there, work hard.smart and stay frosty and things just seem to start getting roomier and calmer.
In the meantime, I have a few questions and suggestions:
Is there a reason you want to split your 2ch setup from your ht setup? In a small space it may be more advantageous to keep them combined until you have more space. I still prefer a combo system more out of convenience than lack of space.
Just an fyi about exposed front facing woofers on the Swarm and Debra subs; the subs have no grilles but are placed facing the wall with only about 1-2 inches of separation. Weird but it definitely works well.
I have very little doubt you'll be exploring a distributed bass array system in your future but I'm thinking that, given your current circumstances, you may discover a better short term solution by trying my and wolf garcia's alternative configuration suggestions.
I now think of the concept of the number of subs (1,2,3 or 4) in a good bass system less as performance absolutes and more in terms of good, better, best. I know through personal experience and scientific verification that room bass response improves as the number of subs in any given room is increased.
But, as several others on this thread have attested, very good in-room bass response can be attained through fewer than 4 subs. The common denominators seems to be more than 1 sub, experimentation and careful positioning.
I'm tending to think your best option may be using 2 good subs in the short term (such as 2 T/1s or 2 T5s) and experimenting with precise placements of each, especially if you're satisfied with optimizing bass response at a single listening position.
Best wishes,
Tim |
