Whow -------- what a long thread!!!!
can this be SO deep a subject?
I have done all sorts of 'hand washing' and later steam cleaning also (a bit), I then had a Nitty and it was just to compare results. Steam cleaning "might" have helped in some VERY heavy cases --- but it NEVER got rid of what I thought might still have been dirt in the groove, causing groove noise. The record was just shot, pitted grooves, maybe the steam cleaning did the rest. Old Mercuries come to mind, hard and brittle vinyl. The more you clean them the worse they get.
I later got a Hannl MERA, the Nitty (top of the rage model)gave me some problems, and then some.
I cleaned all my records over (uff, eventually). The ones from the Nitty days, having been done, some of them 5x or more, BUT not steam cleaned.
EVERY record done with the Hannl (I don't sell the stuff or get commission) was sounding just clearer, a bit more transparent. BUT, there are always some that do not improve the way you'd like. So, I tryed to steam clean those after the Hannl had done its bit 2x - 3x ---- no further improvement.
Sorry to report: NO, zilch difference --- can't make a silk purse from a pigs ear, simple as that.
AND may I say, I have truly tried my share of cleaning concoctions. I'm back with ~ 1/3 Isopropyl Alcohol, ONE drop of liquid soap, a few grains of pool chlorine (kills the algae in the waste container) and the rest distilled water.
Sure you heard the recipe 100 times in a thread THAT length.
Best greetings,
Axel |
Vinyl is nothing other than some doped PVC. It will 'take up some small amount of water in the 'rough' groove area. The MAIN contributor is detergent (liquid soap), which removes the surface tension and by this mechanism allows the absorption. I do know this from first hand experience when I used to do 'hand washing'.
Also, it appears that some amount of Isopropyl alcohol ~ 25% helps to prevent this, it help with quicker drying after the cleaning.
Also with a record cleaner you NEVER flood the surface for such an extended time as doing the cleaning by hand (my experience, I may be too slow...)
Having steam cleaned (and I have done quite a few LPs) everything is wet and has to drip off? Since I had a Nitty at the time I dried it with the Nitty, fine.
Leave the stuff to dry on it's own is just no good --- that's like 3rd-world washing up :-)
Cheers,
Axel
PS: Get a record cleaner, it is more noisy (maybe) but a lot less messy, nice sink you might use and all. |
Hi,
one last word on vinyl's water absorption. If you look with a microscope at / into a groove it is revelatory --- nowhere near as smooth as say the end-wax, right?
Using water on it will soften the vinyl, even a 1/3 Isopropyl mix will, but less so. It will in the process lift vinyl particles almost similar to the small flakes on you skin (top dermis).
If you can feel over the groove area and it appears a bit rougher after cleaning, those are ever so slightly lifted vinyl flakes, they will bed down after playing, hopefully --- or get chipped out and leave more groove noise than before.
The other thing that makes me uncomfortable with steam cleaning is its very cleaning-action. I think that the cleaning is due to what's known as 'cavitation' in fluid technology, small bubbles of low pressure air, close to vacuum collapsing. On e.g. surfaces of metal, a ships or boat propeller, it will pit the metal after some time, and that so badly is must be replaced.
I ask myself what this can do to a micro-groove after extended, repeated cleaning.
Axel |
Hi Kipdent
what your are telling is practically a 1 for 1 story I could relate (Just not in the very lucid and detailed description of yours)
You mention 'stubborn' particles causing pops or ticks. For the ones raised above the groove surface I found also no other method than by using a finger nail (as gently as possible). I use a Hannl MERA, which does a very good job but it can not always get rid of those.
As far as cavitation and the steam cleaning goes, I really do not want to start some scientific 'side thread' on this. As an ex-wind surfer and water sports person I am very familiar with this phenomena -- check under spin-out...
My point, steam is expanded water i.e. of lesser density, it is the same as in water, when due to high surface speeds water under suction (close to vacuum) creates a 'steam bubble'. Water CAN boil at room temperature if you simply lower the pressure, the same principal used in the 'steam cleaner'. It is the sudden collapse / contraction of these tiny steam/vacuum bubbles that affect the surface they are imploding on. It lifts off particles in the extremely fast and millions of times over and over repeated process of bubble implosions. This is the steam cleaners action, not high temperature (its actually pretty cool) or jet pressure or what ever.
There you have it, now go argue some more.
Steam cleaning works, no doubt, but I have my reservations about it, and it is very messy. Not my idea of efficient record cleaning.
A last point for Kipdent and the 'irremovable' tick (it is seldom a pop). If it is a POP, you find 9/10 some VERY HEAVY VTF cart stylus was dropped from some height, creating a usually round indent, effecting 2 - 3 grooves. Can't do a thing here i.e. irreparable damage.
Next, the small ticks and also more continuous crackle or groove noise. I had some of these, and then some. More often, if not all, are pretty hard vinyl of some vintage. 'Mercuries' and 'Turnabout' come to mind again. The more you clean, the worse they sound. It is my contention that these are simply signs of groove disintegration / break-up, the groove is 'chipped out' and gets more chipped out by repeated cleaning efforts --- steam cleaning should truly give them the rest and clean them beyond listening.
Greetings,
Axel |
Crem1
I can see your fear-factor in spending money on some dud cleaner. I did, but look at the price of the most expensive Nitty, please!? Nowhere near 2k, nowhere near...
There are different quality products out there, yes --- like with every thing else i.e. "you get what you pay for".
I had to learn this over and over, so I got the best (well 2nd most best) and it works best. It's what the Japanese once called the Rolls-Royce of cleaners. This costs still not more than 2k, just to get our numbers straight.
Greetings,
Axel |
Hi Mike,
>>> I believe an apology it owed to this thread. <<<
About what? Not steam cleaning and having come to the conclusion a RCM is ones preferred method?
I don't get your apology idea.
But it's also fine to have all steam-cleaners only on the thread keep telling each other how marvellous it all works. Can't see you gonna get another hyper-thread like this one again.
I think the length is at least some sign of not only interest, but a degree of descent about the method too, or?
Axel
PS: If this is only about self congratulations, it seems little value added, at least to me. |
Hi Kipdent
I'm so pleased all seems back on track. The social responsibility to rationality prevailed :-)
As to:
>>> does anyone want to pipe in about my question regarding NOT cleaning new vinyl at all as a choice to minimize noise? Any opinions or experiences? <<<
I'll have a mixed report, and I am still not entirely clear what causes the much different result, but I will share my suspicion.
I had more recently bought some new 'Classic Records' at the RMAF. I did the cleaning after I had first listened to them. They sounded very 'smooth' , in fact too smooth, violins had not proper 'grip' (no rosin on the bow etc.) So I went and clean them (I use a Hannl MERS as mentioned earlier). After cleaning I got a shock, the start wax was noisy, there were some more ticks and groove noise about the first 1/4 groove area, plus I could here some ticks that are clearly scratch related. Hells Bells! I had cleaned about 3 and stopped in a panic.
had some long discourse with Günter Hannl in Germany about cleaning fluid, his cleaner etc. no explanation evolved.
It is but a few day ago, that I decided to give it another try and cleaned some more LPs of that batch I had purchased at the RMAF. AND, you go explain it they sounded clearly better than what happened to the first few that had caused my panic. (Not funny to destroy 30 pop a piece, I say).
The batch I had cleaned just now has been played some, but not a lot ---- again they sounded lacking in definition, dynamics. Im sure you know what I mean. After cleaning there was more THERENESS there, no ticks, no added groove noise.
My suspicion? It is pretty well documented but now that Classic had press-plant problems some time ago. In fact it was reported to be related to the lip-less mould process. Apparently the lip at the start groove helps with the proper (easier) mould sealing. If there is non like Classics process, if things go wrong some vinyl can bleed in to the start groove area. To make matters worse, I understand, some less trained operators did either cause some mishandling (small, and not quite so small, scratches) and/or did not sort out the minor damaged items for recycle.
So, in conclusion and taking the above into account (Classic is reported to have fixed their production problems) cleaning new record most certainly does improve play-back quality YMMV.
Lastly, I do get NOS records once in a while. The softener of the inner sleeves always has bled out and produced a kind of sticky, creased, patchy looking pattern on the vinyl. It sounds really horrible and one wash will take it off (usually) and that NOS record looks like fresh out of the press.
Greetings,
Axel
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