Vameter : Do you know that lots of free Steam cleaning tips and explanations have already been covered in Two Steam Cleaning Threads , one currently active the other discontined. Both are worth reading.
The advantages of using a RCM were parced in these threads as were those that wanted to steam w/o the use of a RCM. From my perspective , steaming significantly loosens pressing greases that entrap all sorts of household gunk.This only gets worse as time moves on. The advantage of a RCM is that once the entraped materials are released ( either with or without record cleaning fluids ) a RCM Quickly, sucks up the released compounds. Of course , you can disregard using a RCM and rely on micro cloths. But, Should you own a RCM why not use it ? As for machine noise,a pair of inexpensive noise protectors works quite well. |
Vanmeter , I signed onto AA searching for "Spray & Wash" posts . I note that of 200 comments I viewed,none were adverse to "S&W's" use. A net search revealed a spray and a liquid. Which one do you recommend? If its the liquid is the ratio ,as some posts mentioned, 14 units of H2O to 1 unit of "S&W"correct? V, what do you recommend? |
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Vanmeter : With respect to micro-cloths "softer the better", has been my experience . I personally wouldn't be without my RCM but I use micro-cloths regularly and get excellent results. And, I never forget that MurphysLaw is always at work as far as LP pressings go. |
Tbg, You stated " I don't have much use for steam cleaning ". May I inquire , is that based on personal experience ? Would you give a more specified outline of your objections ? The reason I ask is that reviewing you rig I am surprised that steam cleaning was such a negative experience. I would have guessed a different outcome ,perhaps, that you would have experienced greater "air" & extended "high end" in playback at minium.
I join Stltrains in my interest in the Walker tube vs say a Loricraft. All the best. |
Tbg,I'll take a jab at responding to the question. This is a viewpoint found on years of slogging.
An over-view of the subject:
1: Many commerical steam machines exist , none suited to record cleaning. Most are suited to heavy industry to degrease machines. As a group they come in all sizes an shapes producing super-heated steam & water (some at hundreds ++ degrees) that melt grease(an vinyl) on contact. Next are garment steamers. Most can distort vinyl in seconds. The reason? Garment machines ,by design, steam & heat a relatively large area to remove wrinkels from cloth. Apply them to vinyl ,kaboom, now you have a droopy, wavey LP. Steam irons do the same only more so. Way too hot and dangerious!
The exception are the household , handlheld steam cleaners. As a group, the comsumer machines produce steam with heated water at near exactly the right temperature(212*- 220*F)cooling to 150* to 187*F. Perfect for record cleaning and household useage. Some more perfect than others but all can perform. Nearly all are constant water-boilers maintained under pressure til' the water runs out(8-15 minutes). They must cooled down before refilling.
Consumer handheld steam cleaners are already under licence (to some one or some company) . With no financal incentive, the Record Cleaning Industry (RCI) shuns most anything they can not contol. Generally, the steamers are not under public domaine but several components maybe that make them difficult to patient. A lot of trouble , money and no return.
2. Steam cleaning LPs is viewed as a threat to the record cleaning machine (RCM) market, manufactures having invested in expensive advertising & machining for decades. In truth, RCM make little money in return for the investment. Its a fact RCM's cost hundreds to thousands retail more than steam units that sell for $50.00 or less. A significant retail spread.
We are what I term "insidental users". We adapt an existing product to our needs that were never recognized by the inital manufacture. In short, we get all the "R&D" benefits with no additional mark-up. They manufacture for the world, in thousands of units, we as a group are few in numbers compaired to the global market,but, we pay the going rate. That's true most of the time;exceptions do exist.
Since I already own a RCM , I incorperate its use , what I term "Combo-Ing" to cleaning records with excellent results. Should you have a RCM use it.If not, no problem.
3. Liability. Of the designers/manufactures whom I have freely spoken with , none were keen to sell high pressure handheld, water boiling units out of concern (fear) for abuse & lawsuits. Still, others refuse to accept any notion that "lite" steam can clean LPs, only their product or cleaning fluid.It has been related, some take every chance to speak negatively , to Audio Insiders , here & in Europe, to slow the notion of steam cleaning.A few even claim steaming causes inaudable, periment damage to LPs, a claim wispered with no published evidence.
I can't blame them , if I were they I might adopt the same tactic. Nevertheless, the paradigm is changing(slowly)and in time the RCI will adopt steaming but as for when ? Besides , when insidental users (like us) can buy a MC 1235 for $50,light-years ahead of convential pressurized units,why should the RCI even bother ? Once I got confortable with the 1235's operation ,I doubt I will ever use a pressured , water-boiling handheld unit again.
Of course ,one can spend $150 on the Mapleshade Kit . Mapleshade puts their ID on the steam unit,actually a "Steamfast Runner",a constant water-boiler, Model SF-227, as their own . That's ok ,they have a right to do that,no problem. Or,one can easily duplicate the kit,sans the rinsers,for about a 2/3 thirds less than the retail price, a tad more with a 1235. Insidentally, the Steamfast units and the McCulloch units are manufactured for Top Innovations (TI), Inc. in China. TI owns the distribution rights to both lines. That is a fact.
I do not expect to see "Record Steaming Machines" anytime soon. But with the MC 1235 ,frankly, who needs ID's . |
Tbg, you can communicate with me off-line at your convience ,should you wish to discuss this further.
As for the "how to" that has been outlined many times in past years that's viewable in posts already archived. I would never be so cavilier to do "blow-off" material onto the floor. I respect my audio roon & lifestyle to do that. Thats a repugnate idea. Perhaps a read of old copies of "Listener" & Stereophile would help. I'm mentioned by name & the method was reviewed by Michael Fremer in '03 & '06. I'm was included in "Positive Feedback" a few years back.
Steam Cleaning Lps is something I have been perfecting for over a decade. I began to share the idea in print in '2000. Posters report that steaming is more effective than using a RCM but without the cost. Read a bit than try it out. |
Vanmeter : I haven't yet purchased Spray & Wash or the Pledge Wipes, I will buy both soon. It is my guess w/o actual experience these cleaners should be used extreme cases. That is an opinion reasoned by use of other detergent-types cleaners but not the ones you suggest. I would try them & then reclean each LP with the prospect of removing all traces of household powerhouse-type detergents w/record cleaning fluid, several steams & the use a RCM to suck off whatevers left. I am concerned that the detergent residues could loosen the diamond tip by disolving the cement .Its known that some detergents can do that , I do not know exactly which ones. Should all residue be steamed off,I reason, no harm to the diamond's glue. That's my view , subject to revision. |
Vanmeter, I have found that many LPs can be played shortly after cleaning. For reasons yet un-explained some LPs sound better with a rest. I have no scientific explanation but thats how it is ... Sometimes. |
Dgarretson: What a misfortune. In years of steaming, nothing like that has happened to me (yet). One rule: I never steam closer than 3/4"ish and constantly move the steam unit all over the LP side for moments at a time. May your fortune change. The whole purpose of steaming is to improve the plight of average-up LP owners. In the future please be awaire of the distance & concentration of steam. Most nozzels are brass , a touch there goes the LP. Better luck in the days ahead. |
Vanmeter: Your post detailing "Spray&Wash"(S&W) offers a reasonable solution to an difficult cleaning problem. Vinyl is vinyl . Steam cleaning a super-grunged LP with the use of S&W , should cause no problems. Besides when its "Spray & Wash" a LP or the trash can , I'll use S&W. Thanks.
Readers : I purchased a McMulloch , Model MC 1235 Handheld Steam Cleaner @ The Home Depot Internet site ($50 to my door). I learned of the MC 1235 from a posting on another thread. The MC 1235 has too many innovations to summarize. Its a significant upgrade to my arsenal of steamers for LP cleaning. I recommend anyone interested Google "mc 1235" for a detailed explanation ... A true 21th Century Product in design, operation & technology. Best to all. |
I wish everyone the best, but some of you are reacting to challenges that have already met & resolved as far as to steam cleaning. It is a fact that RCM's have a place in steam cleaning , but that does not preclude the use of steam only. For instance, the VPI RCM's work well with steam cleaning. They suck off lots of loosened materal far quicker that a Loricraft. But that does not mean a Loricraft can not be admended to the process.
The situation , the materals , the record's condition all interact with the outcome. Don't underestimate the importance of the condition of the pressing at the time of manufacture , even which pressing machine used, contribute to what resolution we hear from a given LP. I do suggest a read of most of the initial steaming thread , until the flamers . Lots of FYI buried there.
As always take care when accepting advice. Your prudence can save one from falling into a black hole. A comment I liked was from a person that claimed steamers don't make steam but water vapor koz steam is not visable to the eye. So, when one sees vapor no steam is present. Perhaps, but in the big picture its the steam (unseen) immediately followed by vapors and heated water spray that combine to loosen the grunge. Using a record cleaning solution can make for a greater improvement depending on the materials pressed between the grove and the output pressure of the steamer. Besides the idea is to use the properties of steam and water to bring you closer to the groves and hopefully the music. All steam could blow a hole thru the LP, something that can not happen with consumer grade hand-held steaming units , less garmet steamers that pose a danger to the LP due the surface area they heat. RCM certianly can significantly improve the listening experience ; they are the ultimate sucking machines.
All the Best. |
No problem here. Give a read or email me. "Control" was a short-cut term . My view is that the Industry ignores the prospect of steam cleaning because there is no reason to support an idea that competes @ pennies on the dollar. Endorsing steam cleaning rather than your brand of record cleaning is not a great way to get your product sold.
I will disclose that several years ago I agreed to a private, invite only, informal "shootout" with one company that manufactures RCMs ,world wide. The owner was present. The pervailing view was that inexpensive steamer used out performed these very expensive products & machines. This was a private matter and I will not reveal the marque. That's all I shall disclose .
I don't write in a vaccum. I receive emails from all over the world requesting advice I give freely. The emails & posts help me as much as I contribute to them. That's how I learned of the MC 1235 ,a remarkable machine one completely adapted to steam cleaning LPs.
In closing, an example of the dramatic difference between steaming and vaccum machines . I own a 1950's Maria Callis LP in mint+ condition that I cleaned with a RCM. Initially, I could hear a slight "stage noise" before Callas began to sing . Upon steam cleaning & in the manner I suggest, one hears : Callas slowly walk onto her mark , the russel of her dress, the soft-sound of leather(most likely shoes) , the movement of her diaphram near the open mike as she opens her mouth, breathes in & instantly I am transported to the exact moment she sings. Quite profound , never forgotten. |
Bogglor,
I use the MC 1235 exactly as pictured on the box w/the straight nozzel. I have no dripping ... yet. If I were you, I would contact Top Innovations to request a replacement for your apparent defective unit.
How I steam is as follows:
I pre-steam a side to loosen up any grunge(my term for record dirt) , I lightly scrub with very, very fine soft brush or a VPI record cleaning brush. I do use record cleaning fluids from Home Brew to Disc Doctor & others with a gentle scrubing. I then use a VPI 16.5 to suck off the whatevers on the record, I then re-steam to remove any residue re-use the VPI 16.5 or in the alternative, air drying using a very, very soft cotton micro-type cloth to wipe while resting the LP from a 1/2 hour to a day.
I rarely ever re-steam a LP provided ,I replace the inner sleve & place the Lp in a poly bag.
Whenever I use the MC 1235 ,I squeese the trigger once knowing a burst of steam with follow several seconds later. I then re-squeese the trigger & release it release again perhaps releaseing a 2nd or a third burst of steam. Note, that's what differs the MC 1235 from the traditional water boilers in which the trigger releases a head of premade steam within the water boilers at a force preset by the manufacturer. With the MC 1235, I perfer to use the low setting on mint LPs & the higher setting everything elese. I perfer the additional control factor.
In terms of home brew, I use the formulas posted on the Net using 92 to 100 percent ISO & battery water.
You do not have a lazy susan : May I suggest using a 100 percent cotton wash cloth than micro-cloths , so many act as static magnets... That could be a part of the problem.
A lot of steamers feel strongly they do not require a RCM & swear that steaming alone is superior to any RCM.
Respectfully, its a difficult call because one can be assured all debris(AKA Gunk) in the grove has been removed w/o a vaccum machine. Still, other steamers use deep water rinsing with either very clean water or Nerl water with hand drying stating " That's the way to go". As for me , I'm a mixer I combo steaming with a RCM. That's my style but others say they have great results with steam and just steam, something you have not.
Bogglor , Demand a replacement or your money refunded.
Steamers, do you have any further suggestions ? |
Bogglor: Stltrains is describing the technique adapted for a "Perfection Handheld Steam Cleaner" available @ Walgreens but apparently according to posts the name has been changed to "Lifestyles" rather than "Perfection". It an excellent product alined with traditional water boiling units; the MC 1235 does not create steam in the same way. Therefore, it is possible that the spitting that you experienced was the result of holding down the water trigger. The MC 1235 manual cautions that holding down the injector trigger for more than 10 seconds creates spitting. The perfection works differently. The head of steam from the Perfection is released with the hand trigger at a constant rate until it is gone.
The MC 1235 creates steam on demand in 2-3 second bursts with each squeese of the hand trigger that injects a small shot of water into a micro-steamer that inturn creates steam moments following a squeese of the trigger. |
Stltrains: Thanks for your support. Kind comments like yours really give me a boost.
On reflection, I was frankly surprized to discover the difficulity some of us were having with the MC 1235. I believe a Steam user with years of experience the transition appears more transparent from water boilers to instant steam makers. On reflection I think a blanket recommendation of the MC 1235 is over-reaching. The Perfection Steamer is a reliable unit very well suited to the over-all needs of a novice to a more seasoned record steam cleaner. Yes, the MC 1235 has innovations but certantly seems more demanding, more "complicated" than the Perfection. Both provide excellent results. The MC 1235 will provide excellent service but the learning curve is longer to the Perfection (now The Lifestyle Steamer).
As I previously posted ; a canster steamer I was operating at home "exploded" in my kitchen. No one was hurt and all the failsafe measures worked perfectly. The $100 canster steamer was expensive to repair ,$230 for the all brass boiler plus installation. That insident started me on a quest for newer technology : A fellow poster alerted me to the MC 1235.
What works for me may not always work as well for someone elese. But, the basics remain the same , a reliable water source & technique supported with a record cleaning fluid an RCM are proven sucess. The application of an anti-static device does improve upon the end-result. I have yet to use the Walker devise;however, I do use a home brew machine that drys & removes static in moments. I have a zapper and a studio tape demagger that removes all static in a second,quite effective . |
