OK, but there STILL has to be a passive X-over inside the speaker after you remove jumpers to allow vertical bi-amping as you can't, or don't want to, run full range into the mid/tweeter (assuming a three way speaker) and woofer. The set-up makes sens when you remove passive cross-over components.
C4's are not bi-amp capable. They are pretty efficient at 89 SPL rating and that seems to be accurate as they pump out WAY more sound than my Quatro's with the same amps.
Xti16, what stood out about the Burmester, and which exact model?
I listen to mostly chamber music and folk type music (smaller simpler ensembles) over Symphony and rock (larger busier ensembles). The C4 Signature II mids are to die for on this type of music.
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Funny, the KISMET's are and ODYSSEY knock-off of the SYMPHONIC line! They aren't so bad at all, by the way.
I auditioned power amps today with a pair of DynAudio C-1 speakers as they are close to the C4 in general timber (those are GREAT small speakers!). WOW, was I surprised.
I listened to a top of the line type tube integrated amp. Very nice soundstage and texture, but...it was still blending the images together like a faint airbrush. I HATE that effect. I'd tell you the brand, but it didn't matter, really, as I moved on in a hurry. Tubes just aren't working for me yet.
The next jump was an odd French made chrome finish integrated CLASS A audio stage with CLASS D power supply hybrid integrated that I called the waffle iron. Now THAT unit sounded good at $15,000.00. But, it was a full system, though; DAC, amp, pre, power, the works.
After that we listened to the PLINIUS SA-103. Rats, this unit sounded too warm (sound, that is but it did get physically HOT) and also not rich and detailed enough. Sounded like a tube unit to me. So my great idea died right there. It fell far from my expectations. So much for paper spec shopping.
Then we tried a BOULDER 860. This amp shot right to the are I like to hear, crisp, detailed, rich and full of inner microdynamic detail and a big expansive background. MUCH better than the SA-103, by far, for my ears.
Then we went to a SIM Audio MOON Evolution 150 watt/channel integrated that was similar to the 860A. Hey, now THIS thing is rocking! It had what the BOULDER 860 had but with even better midrange texture (what tubes seem to do well) and a HUGE soundstage as things opened up. It was remarkably good. The richness was intoxicating.Everything was in its place, and a place for everything.
So now, I'll drag my somewhat light 50 pounds each KISMETS down to the stereo store and A to B to the 860A and see what kind of jump in sound I hear. And, I'd like to drag the Boulder 1060 into the mix. too.
I had NO idea how good the SIM AUDIO stuff was. And, it idles at 55 watts, 5 watts less than my two KISMETS. I can afford to run these 24/7.
The BIG issue is now is a new 860A at $14K or a used BOULDER 1060 at just under that. At the volume I listen to, the 860A had more impactful bass and dynamics than the Boulder 860. But, would the 1060 close the gap and give more headroom? All the Boulder amps are Eco to the max at idle, 17 watts! So, I want to go with SOUND verses what I paid relative to any list price. The 1060 has to be BETTER at 80-83dB average SPL volumes than the 860A. A deal relative to price and worse audio isn't a deal to me. I'd rather pay 14K for the MOON 860A than 12K for a Boulder 1060 if the 1060 sounds worse (who cares what it "listed" for) where and how I use it. "louder" isn't my objective.
This never gets easier, or cheaper! So I save like a demon and maybe this spring I might be ready. My budget just went up time 1.5! |
I'd go to the 200-Watt into 8-ohms MOON 860A model with the C4's, or the Boulder 1060 if it sounds better. I don't really need more power at the expense of sound quality.
The tube unit was made by Octave. It was the best I've heard so far, but the better SS stuff held my ears attention to a higher degree.
Like pre-amps, amplifiers are vastly different in sound. From thirty years ago, the differences have gotten larger. |
Yes, extensive listening seem to say the C4's eat this amp up. Much better bass control and detail without being too harsh up top. No, this amp is NOT as soft and euporic as the KISMETS (think tubes), but it trades that for the utmost in musical precision and control with a still full bodied sound. Some may not like this super SS sound, but I sure do. The amps is fast, detailed, openess and rich sounding. Well, if the music is recorded half decent, it won't fix my old CD's any. The KISMETS are excellent with sub par source material as they add some warmth...not a bad thing when you need it.
There may be a perfect amp, but once source material is factored in, perfection is still fleeting. |
The 1060 was awesome...and over my limit...darn. It had the same sound at any volume. It never seemed to have dynamic compression.
But, I have a line on a MOON W-8 in good condition for 10K and tax (right at my limit). The XP-10 preamp ends up having laser sharp imaging and spectral location to harmonics off the fundamentals. Imagine a cymbal strike. The overtones are dead nuts emination from the location of the fundamental "snap". No other preamp did this, and it, to me, makes music sound live. At least that's what my brain "hears" as it turns out. I had no idea till we switched preamps all around. The XP-10 is an imaging and soundstage precision killer!
Ok, what's not to like about that? It can get harsh on bad stuff, making you back down the volume. What's this got to do with the MOON W-8?
The W-8's are known for a very big soundstage and a smooth solid state sound, that should soften the XP-10 deficiencioes some. To back that up, the i700 MOON was SMOOTH like the Boulder, but with a bigger soundstage at the expense of a little imaging that was so good on the Boulder amp / pre combo. I do mean a little. You kind of liked either amp.
So, the XP-10 with the MOON W-8 may be a nice fit with my C4's. The W-8 has the zero feedback LYNX circuit and a decent amount of power.
I will drag those HEAVY KISMET amps and XP-10 back to the dealer and listen to the XP-10 and the MOON W-8 when the new owner get his MOON 870A (lucky %&$%#@%).
Still, for 10K I think that the Candian built W-8 with five years warranty is a nice amplifier. I just hope it marries my pre-amp well. This take a LOT of time. If not, we soldier on to more of your suggestions. But, I have no "home base" for sonics after I leave Hanson Audio's set-up. Their room is just plain sickeningly good! It is not "live" or "dead" but images with surgical precision. That pisses me off when I go home! My room is next.
Hansen audio is about tired of me by now...as all of you are, too! |
Well, I ended up with a Sim Audio MOON W-8. It hit all the right notes (pun intended); build quality, efficiency at idle (48 watts) and sound. This thing hits the scales, too at 100 pounds...ugh! I found this amp by accident, and it stayed at the top through listening tests.
How good is it? That's somewhat subjective. No, make that completely subjective. But, it is much more precise and detailed than my KISMETS but at three time the price! Once I forget about the price, I'll be happy as a clam. Why are clams always happy? Do they have stereos?
The biggest improvement is a clearer overall sound and a tighter image with a more neutral sonic presentation. The KISMETS are a nice but slightly warmer sound. It took a bunch of money to better the KISMETS, but the MOON W-8 does the trick. I mentioned before that I kind of cheated and got the owner to upgrade to the 870A, and I got his W-8. Hey, the tactic worked.
So the last (like I believe it last!) area is speaker cables. With all the current running through these cables, I can hear differences that have so far evaded me on power cords and low capacitance interconnects.
So far, the NORDOST TYR2 sound good with this amplifier. The better cords seem to get the imaging to be much more holographic and deep behind the speakers. Vocal texture is better than my reference cords (1313A with jacket removed and replaced with LLDPE cable wrap). To my ear, the TYR2 seem to be softer in the bass, however. Not terribly so, but it seems slightly lean. Anybody else think so? I'll plop the amp down between the speakers so leads can be purchased pretty short. The loaner leads are 3 meters or so.
Leads are way overpriced, but sell based on the premise of, "what else can you do to improve the sound as much for less?" argument. From that standpoint, my ear says it's true but my pocket book really hates it.
So I know you all were picking on me about the C4 II's with KISMETS, but I still recommend those amps for the price. But yes, the C4's do take advantage of the "best" money can buy. I just tried to get near the best at an affordable (ha!) price. I think the used W-8 worked out real well. |
..Sounds like you've answered your own question...
Well, I wish that was true but I'm not that smart. So far this has been mental gymnastics, really. If this was all audio was it would be too easy.
Yes, I have Dynaudio C4 Signature II's. And no, these are not fatiguing to listen to at all. I find them superbly rich and detailed. I do agree, however, that if you like that softer type sound these are probably NOT the best choice for that. I keep going back to the more detailed sound I seem to enjoy and the big Dyn's provide this with exceptional balance. These are one of the few speakers I've heard that make ensamble music on vocals sound "real". The midrange texture and richness is, to me, addicting.
Loud? I hit 80-83 dB average SPL and maye 90 dB peaks when I listen. Not sure if that's "loud". No, I would not say this is quiet. It's foreground volume, not background.
So I'm considering class A or high bias A/B amps, which on paper extract the absolute best in imaging precison. The C4's will let you hear it if it is there.
For standard A/B amps, the KISMETS are great. Doing better isn't an easy task. An at home better A better B comparison will let me know where this can go sound wise.
Any Plinius SA-103 users out there? Does this amp deliver the CLASS A goods like you expected? |
When you mention, "Bi-amp vertically" does that remove the X-over and use an external one? C4's, of course, don't allow bi-amping. The best speaker would have no power sucking passive cross-over at all. Run amps right to each driver with electronics adjusting the gain into the amplifiers (not a passive speaker cross-over at high power levels!).
Yes, Ayre has come up and I checked it out. I'm trying to decide what CALSS A can bring but, like you say, the end sound result is all that matters not how you get it there.
I can get Ayre, Plinius, and Boulder. PASS LABS dealers are far and few between in the mid west.
For Ejlif...yes, the ODYSSEY's KISMETS are cool as cucumbers and do sound nice. Who knows, I may have the amps I like now and not know it. The Plinius has the A/B option when you want to cut the heat. Hybrid A/B PASS LABS, like my previous DNA-225 hi-bias amp, will run warm all the time.
I'm in the basement so heat isn't as big an issue. The room is 4,000 SQ feet.
Suck-up on the weight? Well, I'm 150 pounds soaking wet and at 55, I ain't no mighty mouse. Oh I'll git-er-done all right but WHEW, it's still a weighty issue. I wasn't so much complaining about the weight, if I USED it! If I buy a big old amp and use 30-100 watts, could I have bough a better sounding amp for less? Still, sound over weight.
Some design does matter. In a given brand (PASS) I'd have to figure the CLASS A amps sound better or why bother? So, ultimately the class A design should "sound" the best if done right. I want to go up a notch in resolution if I can hear it.
I'll tell you one thing, the CS2.7 Thiel speakers with two SA-103's imaged terrificly in the midrange. Positionally stable, pure and full of texture. The speakers can't do that if the amps don't hand it off to them to use or destroy. |
Yes, audio is odd in that some like less music to be "more" musical. I've switched around preamps and the tube units I've tried left me wanting...for detail and microdynamics. I just can't forget all the nuances of the music I hear with SS units that simple vanished with tube pre amps. Yep, the tube "harmonics" and tonal balance is there, but you loose the qickness and finer detail. My ear seems to want to hear all this. When I have a tube unit in my system, and switch it out, I don't want to go BACK to the the tube unit.
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Detail is not "hard" or glassy either. You can have a rich solid soundstage with good musical separtion and layering of the sounds with SS units. Tubes have been too "pastel" and seem to wash away information by design, much like a impressionistic painting. True, this is NOT the case with ALL tube units, but the ones that have been in my price range. A tube unit that can provide the harmionic structure and quickness with full rich texture with proper separation would be a gem, till the tubes change anyway. |
P59teitel, your dead right on that call (someone has to be right, eventually!), the softer nature of the SA-103 surprised me being CLASS A and all. It was a thirty-second read.
Well, I can't afford a Burmester! I'm deeply into the used market for a Boulder 1060 (12-14K range). I think I've lost my mind at 10-14K! But, I'll use it till they shove me in a square 8-foot deep hole. So the buck stop at or south of 14K.
The SIM unit I listened to was a 700i dual MONO, 175 watts/channel. It was VERY good sounding. It was detailed without being thin. Mids were full deep and against a pure black backdrop. Bass was exceptional with a HUGE soundstage. I need to get a W8 or the 860A and the PASS XP-10 going.
I'll have to get back on the Octave integrated I listened to. It was good, but after the i700, no way would I stay with it. I'm not being mean to you tube lovers, I heard the "magic" in the texture of voice on the Octave, for sure. It was nice but, my ear just goes to the detail like a moth to a flame. It's me. Nothing has it all, so you seem to settle on one side or the other.
I have to drag my XP-10 and KISMETS over to try to square-up what I can expect from my XP-10, and what level of improvement I hear from the KISMETS which aren't terrible at all. But against this level of stuff, I expect a difference akin to the Octave verse the sim i700. Both are good, one is better!
Remember, I'll go full balanced with the SIM 860A or Boulder 1060, too. The XP-10 is supposed to be much better with balanced out-puts.
Thanks for hanging in there on this thread. You all are in a better financial deal with the eventual outcome compared to me! |
