Richard mentioned for a really good SET, amp should weigh over 100 lbs.Richard is a BS artist. Elegance in design always beats brute force. Please read my posts.
Speakers The single most critical component
I know we've been over this Q hundreds of X's over the past 20 years here on audion, You can find dozen of topics dealing with this Q <which is the ,,,,most important component...>>
well time for yet 1 more topic dealing with this,, perhaps unanswered, un-resolved issue.
I'm bringing up the old hachet due to my recent experience acutally hearinga FR in my system.
Let me tell you, there is not even 1 traditional/conventioanl/xover design <The Boxed Type>> in the world that could convince me , there is something that will beat out FR (caveat, FR requires some sort of high sens =sensitivity, tweeter) in the Boxy world of speakers.
That is to say, FR + Compression Horn is the future of 21st Century high fidelity.
One lab has already brought us these ~~~SHF~~~ aka SuperHighFidelity single drivers.
The code word here is ~~SHF~~~ which can not never be employed when describing xover/trad/conventioanl style aka The Box designs. db level under 91 are _<<IN-EFFICIENT>> , = dysfunctional, out dated, old school , = Dinasaurs.
For amps, I only consider tube amps (PP and SET) as ~~SHF~~~ I can not include ss amps in this topic.
IMHO all well made tube amps sound very close,
a kt88 in brand X will sound close to brand Y.
So amplification takes a distant 2nd place in critical component. No need to break the bank buying amp A vs a lower priced kt88 amp B
CD players, nearly all tube DAC's , tube cdp-ers sound close. No need to braek the bank over X vs Y.
My Jadis DAC is only miniscule gain over the Shanling,
the Shanling
only a miniscule gain over the Cayin CD17.
Now as for best source , phonograph is the ideal playback medium vs cds.
I have some LP's now , but my main collection are classical cds, most not on LP version. Cables , I did note some gains employing silver/copper wiring throughout my entire system including inside the Defy.
Tweak worthy.
New Mundorf caps in all componets, tweak worthy.
Yet the main central component remaisn the speakers.
Here is where the entire audio resolution either rises to Nirvana or falls to <<distortion/muddy waters,/pollution/anti-fidelity voicing issues.
Your system's fidelity is ultimately dependent on what speaker you have chosen to employ.
Forget all you've learned over the years,
The new mantra is <,The speaker is key component>
All else is just extra tweaks/nuances.
To sum up, a ~~SHF~~ driver will match even the top of line Wilson weighing in at hundreds of lbs priced $$$$$$$ overa single FR driver.
FR beats out any/all xover box design speakers. Mostly due to that key specification ~~db level~~~ which is everything in speaker design and thus in resolution/fidelity.
well time for yet 1 more topic dealing with this,, perhaps unanswered, un-resolved issue.
I'm bringing up the old hachet due to my recent experience acutally hearinga FR in my system.
Let me tell you, there is not even 1 traditional/conventioanl/xover design <The Boxed Type>> in the world that could convince me , there is something that will beat out FR (caveat, FR requires some sort of high sens =sensitivity, tweeter) in the Boxy world of speakers.
That is to say, FR + Compression Horn is the future of 21st Century high fidelity.
One lab has already brought us these ~~~SHF~~~ aka SuperHighFidelity single drivers.
The code word here is ~~SHF~~~ which can not never be employed when describing xover/trad/conventioanl style aka The Box designs. db level under 91 are _<<IN-EFFICIENT>> , = dysfunctional, out dated, old school , = Dinasaurs.
For amps, I only consider tube amps (PP and SET) as ~~SHF~~~ I can not include ss amps in this topic.
IMHO all well made tube amps sound very close,
a kt88 in brand X will sound close to brand Y.
So amplification takes a distant 2nd place in critical component. No need to break the bank buying amp A vs a lower priced kt88 amp B
CD players, nearly all tube DAC's , tube cdp-ers sound close. No need to braek the bank over X vs Y.
My Jadis DAC is only miniscule gain over the Shanling,
the Shanling
only a miniscule gain over the Cayin CD17.
Now as for best source , phonograph is the ideal playback medium vs cds.
I have some LP's now , but my main collection are classical cds, most not on LP version. Cables , I did note some gains employing silver/copper wiring throughout my entire system including inside the Defy.
Tweak worthy.
New Mundorf caps in all componets, tweak worthy.
Yet the main central component remaisn the speakers.
Here is where the entire audio resolution either rises to Nirvana or falls to <<distortion/muddy waters,/pollution/anti-fidelity voicing issues.
Your system's fidelity is ultimately dependent on what speaker you have chosen to employ.
Forget all you've learned over the years,
The new mantra is <,The speaker is key component>
All else is just extra tweaks/nuances.
To sum up, a ~~SHF~~ driver will match even the top of line Wilson weighing in at hundreds of lbs priced $$$$$$$ overa single FR driver.
FR beats out any/all xover box design speakers. Mostly due to that key specification ~~db level~~~ which is everything in speaker design and thus in resolution/fidelity.
Showing 50 responses by pesky_wabbit
Garbage in = garbage out is a red herring.. even entry level source and amps are pretty good.. therefore there is no "garbage in". There is a little bit better in, there is I like the sound of that in a little better than another in, but there is no garbage in. Sorry, doesn‘t cut it. if you‘re going to dismiss a philosophy you‘re going to have to come up with something a little bit more convincing. I have heard a pretty good argument. The posts on this thread thread appear to have deviated considerably from commenting specifically on the original poster’s postulate. In my opinion it would be considerably more interesting if subsequent posts were to concentrate on the issue at hand. |
OK I‘ll nail my colours to the mast: my primary directive is ’garbage in garbage out‘, with ’weakest link’ lurking in the background. By that I mean that the source should always take precedence, and that a top down hierarchy is justified. However, in pursuit of this ideal gross imbalances in the system should not be tolerated. Give me your best shot. |
@mozartfan there are a couple of assumptions you make I must cordially disagree with. You dismiss SS out of hand. I argue it’s all in the implementation rather than the devices used or the topology adopted. There‘s good and bad in both camps. All well designed tube amps sound very close. Except some are just more transparent than others, some have more of a spark of life in their music making, some are just plain more involving to listen to. Moreover, SET’s don’t sound like PP’s. I own an ARC VSi60 and a Leben CS600, both well respected PP‘s, but quite different sounding. I also appear to discern greater differences between digital sources than you.have personally outlined. |
@herman, I would have thought it obvious that "the single most critical component."would be the one that was the weakest in the chain, and that the OP was arguing that speakers had greatest potential to fulfil that criterion. Agreed, cheap digital has come a long way, but it was important for it come a long way - the source was, and is the most important thing to get right. Cost is not an issue here: just because you can get a source that satisfies you for $100 doesn‘t make it any lesser in importance. It may cost you considerably more to acquire an agreeable analogue front end. |
@mozartfan I have been building tube amps for 40+ years, and tubes are by far my preferred mode of amplification. However I can not agree with a blanket statement such as I might even go so far as to say a well designed ss amplification may be acceptable if pair with full range/TI compression.Well designed SS amplifiers are just as capable as tube amplifiers in ANY application. It’s all about the creator, and not what devices they chose to implement their vision. |
@mozartfan you state:. Maybe Richard can loan one of his SET amps, and compare to Defy7, If SET wins out I’ll buy Ricahrd’s SET, and dump the glorious Defy7 with all new Mundorf SESGO + F&T caps. New navships internal silver wiring. New copper speaker posts. NOT selling on the cheap. She’ll be priced mid level. ain’t gonna take a hit. RHows about a true Loftin-White with NO CAPS in the signal path to mess things up. Design elegance always trumps boutique components. i‘m available....... And by the way, you haven‘t addressed any of the issues I have raised. |
ZSeems the SET amplification has been officially coveted as the only amplification for the task.All this agonising over amplifiers, which in the end, basically all sound the same? ’SET amplification has officially been coveted as the only amplification for the task‘. Dig the pompous nomenclature - Kinda makes amplifier choice crucial to the system performance in my book. |
I had heard of Decware, but not investigated.Just buy a Leben CS600 and be done with it...... if you really want to burn dollar bills Shindo would get my vote. |
Once you have built few a few amplifiers you begin to realise that certain designs are constrained by particular factors: eg the Dynaco ST-35 you are so enamoured of is constrained by its output transformers, and that no amount of tweaking is going to elevate it to superstar status. This is where creators such as Leben and Shindo really come into play. They have access to superior components which do not throttle performance. I have the distinct impression that you haven‘t really listened to a lot of top quality amplifiers, and that if you had, you would rate their importance far more highly. |
Many years ago in la la Linn land I remember hearing a pair of active Kans on the end of a fully tricked up Linn/Naim system doing things they couldn‘t possibly achieve. When driven with the right gear my Naim IBLs do a reasonable facsimile. Size or mode doesn‘t count - it‘s all about communication. |
@mozartfan I‘m sure the speakers you linked do SOME things brilliantly and are a whole lot of fun to listen to. But as to the ultimate loudspeaker, God give me strength. You love to paint yourself as a wise old sage who is passing on the benefits of superior knowledge. I can also claim to be pretty old and decrepit, and have been building and enjoying SETS and FR speakers for over 40 years. They are really rewarding, and I get a get a great deal of satisfaction from listening to them, But I am not deluded by the notion that they represent the ultimate in sound reproduction. If you were arguing SET‘s and horns with crossovers I might take you more seriously. |
No, just ... no. Give me a $150-$500 DAC with volume control,And what about the source that feeds the DAC? And please don‘t tell me that all transports sound the same. A really top class transport with a cheap but serviceable DAC always trumps any expensive CD player at the same cost. If you are streaming you are paying for the quality. You can‘t recreate what you lose at the source PERIOD. And don‘t fall into the fool’s trap of equating dollars with importance. |
@mozartfan Why haven’t you tried to address a single issue I have raised? Try to justify your absurd comparison of amplifiers to tubes. Age doesn‘t necessarily confer wisdom. On the contrary it can petrify thought processes unless one is open to sane reasoning..Stop your self indulgent, pompous never ending rambling, and provide some real substance to your claims. In less than 100 words, preferably. |
You and others are presenting critical information, but it is falling on deaf ears. There is no acknowledgement of it let along a rebuttal. Thank you. I appreciate your elucidation. |
And while we‘re on the temporary subject the of Pineapples from the Dawn of Time. a totally tongue in cheek ode to Charlie Manson. https://youtu.be/0YGGuFUWuk |