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Speakers The single most critical component

I know we've been over this Q hundreds of X's over the past 20 years here on audion, You can find dozen of topics dealing with this Q <which is the ,,,,most important component...>>
well time for yet 1 more topic dealing with this,, perhaps unanswered, un-resolved issue.
I'm bringing up the old hachet due to my recent experience acutally hearinga FR in my system. 
Let me tell you, there is not even 1 traditional/conventioanl/xover design <The Boxed Type>> in the world that could convince me  , there is something that will beat out FR (caveat, FR requires  some sort of high sens =sensitivity, tweeter)  in  the Boxy world of speakers.
That is to say, FR + Compression Horn is the future of 21st Century high fidelity. 
One lab has already brought us these ~~~SHF~~~ aka SuperHighFidelity  single drivers. 
The code word here is ~~SHF~~~ which can not never be employed when describing xover/trad/conventioanl style  aka The Box designs. db level under 91 are _<<IN-EFFICIENT>> , = dysfunctional, out dated, old school , = Dinasaurs. 
For amps, I only consider tube amps (PP and SET) as ~~SHF~~~ I can not include ss amps in this topic. 
IMHO all well made tube amps sound very close,
 a  kt88 in brand X will sound  close to brand Y. 
So amplification takes a  distant 2nd place in critical component.  No need to break the bank buying amp A vs  a  lower priced kt88 amp B
CD players, nearly all  tube DAC's , tube cdp-ers sound  close. No need to braek the bank over X vs Y.
My Jadis DAC is  only miniscule gain over the Shanling,
 the Shanling
only a  miniscule gain over the Cayin CD17. 
Now as for  best source  , phonograph is the ideal playback medium vs cds. 
I have some LP's now , but my main collection are classical cds, most not on LP version. Cables , I did note some gains employing silver/copper wiring throughout my entire system including inside the Defy.
Tweak worthy.
New Mundorf caps in all componets, tweak worthy. 
Yet the main central component remaisn the speakers.
Here is where  the entire audio resolution either rises to Nirvana or falls to <<distortion/muddy waters,/pollution/anti-fidelity  voicing  issues.
Your system's fidelity is ultimately dependent on what speaker  you have chosen to employ.
Forget all you've learned over the years, 
The new mantra is <,The speaker is key component>
All else is just extra tweaks/nuances. 
To sum up, a  ~~SHF~~ driver will match even the top of line Wilson weighing in at hundreds of lbs priced $$$$$$$ overa single FR driver. 
FR beats out any/all xover box design speakers. Mostly due to that key specification ~~db level~~~ which is everything in speaker design and thus in resolution/fidelity. 

mozartfan

Showing 5 responses by murphythecat

murphythecat
181 posts
 
yeah, I think OP’s opinion is valid in many ways.
Wideband/FR speakers do things in the midrange/treble that no multiways can achieve. The transition and transients with the mid to treble is just unique in character.
however, I dislike large format wideband (4 to 6.5 inch wideband are the best) and so they are extremely limited in the bass, cannot go loud and since wideband use very light cone and weak magnets, the bass they make is truly subpar next to a 12 inch based 3 way for example.

I’m listening right now to a pair of Fostex ff105wk that ive implemented in a minimus enclosure.
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/inspired-by-the-chinese-abomination-thread-h...
These roll off around 110hz, ive added a REL T5 sub and yeah, there’s magic there in the mid that my SEAS A26 cannot match. but they sound anemic when played loud, not as even in frequency response in the treble and the bass is definitely weaker vs the A26.

as for the discussion about room acoustic being king, i disagree. and my room is fully treated. a well treated room wont make a P3ESR sound like a harbeth 40.1. room acoustic is extremely critical for good sq and one cannot get best SQ without proper early reflection treatment and bass traps ect, but speakers are the most important tool

PS: im quite confused by the Voxativ hype. The frequency response is average at best. I feel like audiophile community look at the prices and automatically assume Voxativ are the best cause they are extremely highly priced.
cough cough
https://www.stereophile.com/content/voxativ-ampeggio-loudspeaker-measurements

wouldnt want them if they were given to me
murphythecat
181 posts
 
@mahgisterdo you have links or papers about this active treatment?
did you ever compared active vs passive treatment?
I mean, 95% of top level studios still use simple passive treatment. when well made, its very good...

@ mozartfan
as far as im aware, for some reason, voxativ dont show measurements of their drivers. from what i gathered, they are excellent drivers, but I dont know for that kind of money id go field-coils supravox. or hell, id get WE 755a. these are the best wideband ive ever heard and often refered as the wholy grail of widebands

as for dual 6" in your thor, those are likely better in the bass vs voxativ
any wideband needs a sub cause the light cone and weak magnet needed for a wideband driver compromise the bass.

going with a bigger 8 inch wideband I think is a safer choice since at least youlll be able to play loud without too much imd distortion ect. but be aware they will still need a sub especially for symphonies. however, like everything it is a compromise. getting a 8 inch wideband comes with beaming and reduce HF dispersion vs smaller wideband. If you dont listen loud, id get a 6.5 inch voxativ and dual REL S-R-G series subs

https://www.stereophile.com/content/voxativ-ampeggio-loudspeaker-measurements
the graphs here show +5 db between 2khz and 10khz relative to 100hz to 2khz. this will sound incredibly coloured. maybe great for a show audition, but long term id never be able to live with such coloration. hence why id suggest 5" or 6.5" voxative drivers as they are likely smoother in the treble vs their 8" widebands
murphythecat
181 posts
 
@ maghister:
" And no passive material treatment can do it only by itself in a room under 20 feet....Sorry..."

"20 feet" do you have any data to back this up? Your throwing numbers out there and imo you exagerate.

lets list the top 10 arguably best studio in the world or you know, some very well respected studio.

Abbey road 1 and 2
Conway Recording Studio
Village Recording Studio
Sound Factory
Sunset sound
Chicago Recording Company Studio 4
Circle Studios, Birmingham
East West
Manifold

NONE use active treatment. Why? Cause Passive treatment works perfectly, without any drawbacks (apart from visually)

- Passive treatment gives SOTA performance... even in relatively small rooms.
- Active treatment with DSP/EQ colours the sound, that cannot be avoided. that is undebatable. 
- Passive Tuned helmholtz resonator will work just as well as active subs cancellation methods or active helmholtz resonator and will avoid all this EQ nonsense.


" My 50 vintage bucks speakers sound like SOME not so good 15,000 bucks"

but your 50$ vintage speakers doesnt come close to the best 15000$ speakers out there. 





murphythecat
181 posts
 
" I have not calculate the exact size where controls of the timing early and late reflections will be more difficult"

what do you mean?
Do you have early reflection panels (absorption) ? Cause one thing that is very clear in the acoustic world, any small room need at the minimum absorption at every early reflection points. DSP or EQ will not remove the decay problems caused by early reflections. Only absorption (in a small room) will. You could make your room measure flat FR wise with EQ and DSP, but without absorption at the early reflections points (ceiling, side walls and behind your listening position) any ECT measurements will clearly show that your room decay is not even at all frequencies and certainly not -15db within 20ms or even 100ms

"acoustic is the sleeping princess and the future queen, the gear is the 7 working dwarves’’
Agreed 100%
murphythecat
181 posts
 
First, I agree 100% with you about the importance of acoustics. its a crucial aspect of sound quality. Id go as far as say that I dont think you can get hi-fi sound without a properly treated room.

" For the reflections point coming from front and back meditate this short abstract of a scientific paper"

early reflections coming from the front wall? physically impossible, reflections coming from behind the speakers are secondary reflections and will affect the SBIR, but apart from open baffle or Maggies, no early reflections are coming off from the wall behind the speakers.
secondary reflections are good by definition. early reflections are always bad. no matter the room. do you know the definition of a early reflection and the difference between early and secondary reflections?



" For the first reflection point all is relative to other factors in the room: geometry, topology, size, acoustic content of furniture, walls, ceilings floors etc. Then NO RULE is valid for ALL room save a balance that must be created by the tuning experiments by our own ears..."

ok, so no mics or measurements?

The understanding of early reflections and how to make a small-medium room transparent acoustically is well established by now. Acoustic is a science. Not much mysteries left there. every room is different, but every room will have early reflections points. and the same method to stop the detriments from early reflections is either diffusion if you have a huge room, or in any normal room, absorption. "furniture" wont change anything here. Rugs either.



" control of "timing" of early and late reflections complementing the passive treatment but control of the relation between each speaker direct wave with the location of different resonators near the speakers and around the room, this use of each speaker will make easier for each ear the recreation of distance then of "imaging"

wow, not sure i understand this sentence. Resonators tackle specific FR bands. every room will need wideband absorption at early reflection points.


Acoustics is relatively simple

1- find the best listening position. good guideline is start at the 38% rule.
2- Find the best speaker position. Place a mic at the Listneing position and move the right speaker around until you have the smoothest bass without major peaks, avoiding the most crude bass modes. repeat with the Left speaker.
3- absorb the early reflections ( ceiling, side walls, floor, behind the listening position)
4- add 20 inch bass traps floor to ceiling in every corner of the room

Everyone following these steps will have a good measuring room (FR and decay wise)



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