You could rename this thread ‘One Giant Advertisement for Voxativ Horns
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
can't
Ines the speakers engineer at Voxativ, just emailed me, Says my Defy7 is <<NOT>> a match for Vox drivers.
I told her, well being half german, i have a bit of bull head, = Sinatra's I DID IT my way.
So inspite of Richard and Ines suggestion, that the PP amplification is not <, The Ideal> match for the Vox, I plan to go through with the Vox project sometime next year,
After I recoop my huge $1800 loss in the recent thor upgrade. Camn't give em away.
There is no demand for speakers at the moment, Thought I'd let you guys know, What you buy new, at purchase you just lost 50% market value and will havea very hard time selling.
So in the meantime.
A guy in lafayette La just wrote that his exp of the LII fast 8 was stunning, so for $230 I just ordered the LII Fast 8 which will hold me over til i can recoop some audio budget cash and add the Voxatic ...Let me get these numbers correct,,Its their entry model
~~~AC-1A~~~
That will be next year, as i have dental bills.
anyway, I will post a Youtube vid once I build cabinets.
At $230 a pair, + $60 Home Depot snaded plywood, this will be a nice experiement in Full range with PP amplification. I notec there are a few PP + LII Fast8 on Youtube.
Ines might be as Richard Gray;s opinion, which is as old as the hills, SET + FR = Perfection.
thing is, from the YT vids I've heard of SET amps, I really did not care for any of the SET.
Besides can a SET amp, voice thick, rich, full, very complex ( Schnittke, Pettersson, Carter) with the ~~Dynamics~~ Details, speed, clarity, bass, highs that I hear in the KT88's...??
I just don't think so. So far I'm not impressed with SET's in clasical music.
I will upload a YT vid on the Diatone + Vifa clone DavidLouis today, You make the call.
I know well witha compression TI Horn, we will have even superior soundstage in the uppers.
A Vifa Neodynium, as good as it is, is no match for a TI Compression horn.
btw this topic now has over
~~~4000~~~ views.
Folks are curious in this old tech xover/box traditional speaker vs FR shootout will end.
Once you have heard a FR, you will never ever go back to xover/box traditional speakers. |
Voxativ
~~~~~~~~~~~
this is the FR speaker company that is <<on the move>> making their line 21st Century speakers a reality,
However there is only 1 model which i can basrely afford, their AC1A at $1800.
Considering prices on box speakers this is very competitive. Of course you need to build a cabinet + add a compression tweet. So now this makes Voxativ mid priced and has to be judged among mid-priced boxed style speakers.
What still remains is the <<efficiency factor>> which to me is the only criteria when considering buyinga speaker,
Thus to get your foot in the door to a real high fidelity speaker, expect to fork out the cash.
Otherwise you can buy used box stuff all over audiogon on the cheap, But then its the old saying
<<You get what you pay for>> and nothing more. You will not ever find used FR's on the used market,. Folks never sell what they know is a keep, while if you look here and on ebay, its likea grave yard > of box style speakers. Take you pick, make any offer, he'll take it.
This is what i am trying to convey here,
FR have been aro9und, but this comapny has gone further, amking this FR <<the real deal> while box style are out dtaed.
this is the point of my OP.
Folks can rave about this box and that box speaker, but once they have listened to a FR in their rooms, they really know nothing about the failure of box/xover designs. They are old old school and its just a matter of time before FR takes the market on new sales.
If I did not mention Voxativ, no one else would.
I read all these <<what kind of speaker should i get>>> and the list just goes on and on, Not even 1 mention of FR.
Audiogoners are old school, still stuck in the boxy xover designs.
I now really hate, despise, puke at hearing any box/xover design.
This is the point of my OP, to bring awareness.
Of course Voxativ's line is pricey, their top model goes for
~~~$60K~~~~~
More than a Mercedes Benz. |
Tell ya what
Lets take the Xoxativ newest intro model
@ $2 k+ $1k for a compression horn tweet (take your pick they range in prices all over the place)
so now give me a box design under 91db (99% of box designs are 91db/lower)
that will match what a FR/TIHorn can do
Sure the FR isa 8 inch woofer, not going to match a 10/12 inch box's bass response.
But for overall equation
bass/mids/highs.
Name me 1 box dsign that can match the FR/TI Horn's perforamnce.
As a bonus, I'll give you say ohh another $5k on top of the $3k, help ya out there in this
final show down shootout, which i began back in 2000 here on audigon, one of the longest running threads in audiogons history.
Went by the tag, <<Bartokfan>> some of you who have been around, may remember me, I knew absoluetly nothing back then. It was only when i got the 6.5 FR in
~~I acheived enlightenment~~~
So take $8k, give the FR8/TI Horn your best shooter in the west
OK Coral,
all my chips on the FR/TI Horn.
Taking some 20 years to get to the last speaker standing shootout,
Sundown, you be there...
;-))
|
Let me share my most recent experiences
Everyone can decide for himself
This is only my opinion, my 2 cents.
My Defy7 was being upgarded by Ricahrd Gray, so as is his usual, he loans out his spare amps.
1st up, his <<baby Gray>>a heavily modded Dynaco ST70 redesigned by Richard, he sells alot of these amps.
Really did not expect much from the lil Gray,, but honestly close to the Defy.
Next he loaned me his Allan Organ mono blocks with KT120's, again, sound close to the Dynaco and Allan.s all 3 amps had close to same sonics, /sound stage etc.
kt88=EL34 = KT120, to me a tube is a tube. just shades of difference twix the 3 tubes.
Which is how i base my opinion a push pull = a push pull.
SET's are another amp.
I could live with any of the 3 amps, but prefer the Defy for its aesthetics and does have slightly superior sonics, = read <<nuances> Nothing more.
My Jadis DPL preamp, sounds very close to my sold chinese clone Jadis 12AT7 preamp, hardly tell them apart.
The cayin cd player sounds very close but no cigar to the Shanling, the Shanling onlya nuance over the pricey Jadis DAC.
Conclusion,
Most quality design push pull tube amps will exhibit very close ambience to each other.
Caveat here, looking at a baby Gray, looks ugly inside and very simple layout vs Defy 7's very complex layout. Yet both sound similiar.
Jadis DAC has some very nice components inside vs the Made In China looking Shanling, Yet both sound very close in sonics.
Now we come to speakers.
There is not 1 box type xover design, traditional 2 or 3 way that competes with a FR/TIHorn
Here its a matter of a completely different experience.
This is what i am attempting to get across in this topic, Agree, disagree, fine. I just wanted to document my experience as a google login reference for future audiophiles research.
They can do what they wish with my experience.
Caveats here.
Gold Lion KT88's soundeda bit too warm for my taste, went with Svetlana, next wioll be EH kt88's.
Might be a dif, not sure.
Richard says they are the same tube, made in same plant, Can't say for sure if he is right.
Next up caps, When the other tech geek removed the big blue Philips caps and installed Nichicon's, some of the Jadis magic went away also, WE put them back.
When we installed 12 .47 Mundorf SESGO caps, i noted more bass,
Again navships wiring throughout system all adds up to nice nuances.
Bottom line is the biggest most significant gain in my system was going to a FR vs the old traditional xover low efficiency design.
IMHO tubes + FR are a match made in heaven.
Richard was telling me often, <<YOu have the wrong speakers>> But not understanding what he was getting at, He may not have even mentioned FR. The FR discovery was all on my own research.
I would look over DL offerings on ebay for hours, But not sure what exactly FR was all about.
Took the step and glad i did.
This is why i arrived at the hypothesis <,speakers are everything in a audio system>>
All else are just nuances, tweaks.
I you have the wrong speakers, ya ain't got nothing.
Hope that clarifies. |
Don't take my word for it, Just watch and believe. as we say down here in New Orleans Saints land, ~~ya gotta believe~~~ Even the Voxativ owner knows he has the worlds very finest drivers, Field coil is way out my undwerstanding, not to mention out my budget i'll stick with his entry model https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq9r_TL49Kk |
$8k in the used market,
Thats $16k in the new market, box/xover low efficient design vs the 8FR/TI Horn speaker.
After 40 years, i finally have awakened.
Did it all my own, even Richard Gray could not give me the answer to my search.
All he said FR has good things and bad things.
I;ll take the bad with the good, because the good is The Best. whereas box style only offers,,,~~Mediocre~~~ |
https://omegaloudspeakers.com/collections/monitor-speakers/products/super-alnico-high-output-monitor...Yes pretty good description of a very friendly tube amp speaker Note in the descript ~~No power sucking, midrange MUDDYING xovers~~~ Agree. xover speakers are dinasaurs when it comes to voice tube amplification magic. Thats my point. Now as far as Omega vs Voxativ. I'd rather have the option of purchasing my own driver and buildinga cabinet, AS per the suggestion from Voxativ Quote ** our customers like the idea they can purcahse our driver, go to Home Depot and buy a piece of sanded plywood and build their own cabinet/face panel** WE are all ona tight budget lately, so buying a single FR driver making the cabinet is a great way to get the foot in the door to high percision high fidelity voicing of music. I'd say the 21st Century is here and now. I have been enlightened, comming out the dark ages. No one back in 2000 fully explained these things to me, had they, I might not(?) have bought the Thors. There are alot of newbies who do not havea clue, such as i was once, as where to go for speaker selection for their tube amplification. WEll now these greenies do not have to go down the wasteful road of speaker flipping to realize its FR which is the answer to their issues. FR is the King of all speakers. Troels Gravesen can read my posts, just sit there and shake his head all he wants, Hard to argue against the truth. |
facts are
SEAS makes the finest most musical low efficient speakers in the world, Bests Scan Speaks which are too warm vs SEAS clarity, life like voicing in mids,
'But even SEAS next to any old FR, can't hold a candle,
FR, fastest shooter in the west
Shot out the SEAS at the OK Coral, was really bloody, you really did not want to see that gun fight in my listening room
RIP SEAS, you served me well past 20.
But ain't gonna miss ya, thats for sure. |
quality, but the omega single driver alnico FR speakers I had were nice, but had many weaknesses. Is Voxativ making something entirely different? If so, please educate me. Thanks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not able to give real live/bonifide critique on the Voxativ
as i have not heard them, only via YT uploads. Of course you can just look at the web site and see these are highly engineered products.
Richard also mentioned weaknesses in his experience of FR,, but as with you he said there were many lovely things as well.
AS we know there is no perfect speaker, and i have no super high celestial hopes of finding perfection.
I awoke at 3am with this thought on my mind.
THE MORE EFFICIENT THE SPEAKER THE MORE EFFICIENT THE TUBE AMPLIFICATION
There , I have finally figured out how to get the best super high fidelity out your tube amplification.
I seriously doubt anyone has formulated this thesis in any stereo review/speaker review.
I am the 1st, although may have been hinted at somewhere in Stereophile's years of issues.
Of course this applies to SET amplification, which led me away from SET's. Due to my Thors 87db, I was a a harsh critic of SET's due to their limitation of speaker choise, Stupid me, al;l i had to do was draw a further conclusion.
If SETs love high efficiecy, its logical to note push pull also may benifit from employing high efficient speakers,
And this is the truth. Push pull tube amps perform much better with high efficient speakers.
This is the main thrust to my argument, that any speaker lower than 92/93db is not a match for tube amplification.
FR is the only way to voice muisc via tube amplification, Now which lab is on the cutting edge of technology of FR drivers?
Lucky for us, the lab developed a single driver we all can afford. Now our tube amplification can
as one DIYer has his mantra
~~Sing Like Angels~~~ |
~~~~Everything Seas and Sacn Speaks says about the character voicing of all their drivers, might be true,,only if there is no FR in the same room, Especially if the FR just happens to be The Voxativ~~~~
;-)) |
Just typed in Voxativ audiogon's search engine seems there already exists atopic on Voxativ, There you can read the commenst, which backs up conclusions i;'ve arrived at independently, although no actual live experience, all my hunches are confirmed in the comments comming from those who own /auditioned the Voxativ. It is the battle of the Dinasuars vs Full range/TI Horns in the early 21st Century, My guess the war will be over come 2030-2040. There will not be any production of 93less db/under, traditional box/xover designs. All maket speakers will be Full range/Compression Tweets. 100% come 2040 You can get glimpes of this zeitgeist now, witness box/xover designs sitting on audiogon/ebay month after month. No one wants them even at half price. I'm lucky if I get cents on the $ for my Thors listed. Whereas try to find a high fidelity used FR. Don't exist, folks do not sell when they know its the speaker they;'ve been searching for all their life long https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anybody-listen-voxativ?highlight=voxativ |
the speakers are the actual electro mechanical transducers that actually deliver the music to the ears of the listener in the room...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perfectly stated.
You stated in 20 words what took me 2000+ words
Then conisder everything i wrote on this topic as mere footnotes to your chapter. |
probably enjoy a system with $5000 speakers driven by a decent $1000 integrated amp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this alligns with my recent experience with Richard Gray's modded Dynaco ST50 + his Allan Organ Mono blocks, vs the $8k Jadis Defy.
Really surprised me these 2 amps were close to the Defy7 modded with Mundorf SESGO/F&T caps.
~~~~
We should also consider this,. Look at audiogon/ebay/audiomart listings foe used speakers,,most just sit there month after month UNSOLD.
There are zero FR used up for sale
That alone should say something.
Single FR/high quality if listed at 50% off would sell in 1 day.
While xover box designs sit 50% off for months.
Just a thought.......
If not forensic proof. |
Revel F228Be 90 db efficiency, easy to drive
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps Easy for solid state amplification, that low 90db will compromise a tube amplification from its effective/clean performance.
WE are looking at 94db as the cutoff point. |
What’s to get here, pragmatically speaking, is that the speakers (and acoustics) have always mattered the most to even approach "perfection," and trying to convince oneself we’ve actually accomplished that seems, if anything, unrealistic. Everything may matter to some degree, but certainly not all equally.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Best post on this topic, I was not going to touch Millercarbon's comment, as i could not come up with the excellent response you provide.
The Jadis DPL is a nuance superior to the 12AT7 I sold off.
The Jadis DAC is a nuance+... superior to the Shanling 3000.
The Defy7 is a nuance superior to RG's baby Gray/Allan Organ monos.
But now we come to speakers,
There are indeed weaknesses in the 6.5 single FR, addinga tweet corrects this.
I am running a Dayton FR 3.5 on top the 6.5 FR, which does compensate for some ambient highs.
The Vifa clone arrives next week, Then we can hear a FR + designated 91db tweet with the FR.
The Seas Thor was like listening to a wet blanket thrown over the speaker.
All of Granesen's designs are 92db/lower , None of his offerings will work for my tube amplification.
The purpose of this topic was answered last night 3am as i awoke with the realization that...
The lower the efficiency of the speaker, the less effective the tube amplification.
Now i know above I was more than forgiving allowing speakers with a 92/91 db rating to be employed with tube amplification. I have to revoke and condemn that generosity.
In my book, the new numbers are 93/94db efficiency.,
Why did I change?
Because every quality FR efficiency #'s begin at 94db.
So if a speaker is not 94db/higher, the speaker will not make the ideal match for tube amplification.
Speakers for tube amplification begins at 94db.
This would be the FR class of speakers.
AT 93db, you are now on the threshold of compromising a tube amplification from its highest range of performance.
I rest my case.
I so wish I had understood these things wayy back 2000 when i started my speaker quest in the topic, Speaker shootout at the OK Coral... |
The few snides above
i choose to ignore as these members are not in any shape/form contributing to this most important issue of performance in tube amplification.
Who here will argue against my belief above , that the IDEAL cutoff point efficiency in a speaker for tube amplification is 94db. Surely for SET, but this includes Push PUll.
Even Jadis's massive monos the JA800 will sound far superior with 94db, than it would with a 90/89 db speaker.
Which is the point of this discussion, how do we get the most/best performance from our tube amplification?
|
I've been looking at the Seas Exotic at $800 each.
That driver has been around quite some time,
Whereas the engineer at Voxativ had worked for Lowter, took Lowther to a whole new level.
I am quite sure the Seas Exotic is a fine speaker, but my budget only allows 1 choice. Will be Voxativ in 2022.
Besides you can not find even 1 YT video on the Seas Exotic, nor have i read even 1 **WOW** review on the Seas FR model. Whereas on the Voxativ, at least 1, maybe a 2nd comment left on Voxativ's speakers perforamnce at 2 different audio shows, one in Montreal claimed the Voxativ was the very best room at the show.
Seas puts all their engineering in the old dianasaur models, whereas Voxativ is working on bringing the audio community the very finest in 21st Century High Fidelity, This is why I chose to ignore Seas. |
ALL speakers are colored, have the highest levels of distortion of all components by a LARGE margin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Finally after 40 years of testing, thinking, pondering, yes agree,
Speakers will be the most critical component. There are so many box/xover speakers that will ruin even a $100k Jadis set up or any other $100k set up of your own choice. Mine just happened to be Jadis. That said, as i mentioned above several times. Richard Gray lent me 2 of his loan amps, while the Defy was undergoing new Caps/new resistors, new internal wires.
The Dyanco ST50 and his Allan Organ monos, both were very close to the $9k/new Defy7.
= a KT88 = almost any other KT88. Although that is a blanket statement. There are some tube designs that just <<got it wrong>>,
Point is, you do not need to worry about amplification, nor much of source, phoono is superior to cd for sure, however most of my classical is not found on LP, so now i addeda phono and have started collecting some classical(Pettersson symphonies) which i also have the cd as well.
Glad a few discerning audiophiles can help me out in this heated debate.
There are so many speakers of the box/xover design when used with any tube amplification, which will drastically lower the purity and fidelity of the source.
Hopefully after we close this topic, my 2 mantras will plant seeds in newbies minds which decades later will take root.
1) speakers are the single critical component
2) FR are the King of all speaker designs
3) compression TI Horns are the king of all tweets added to a FR
I can not even give away the Thors right now, like most xover/box designs they just sit on various sites as if in a junk yard.
You will rarely, if EVER finda <<Used FR>> on the market. Snaped up in less than 1 week, at near full price.
I rest my case.
|
Let the debate going on please....We will keep the thread .... 😊
~~~~~~~~~~
If we do not openly, freely , with civility discuss this speaker issue, how will we ever get to the bottom of things?
Agree, let the discussion continue.
I can tell you as of now, my mind is as shut /closed even more so than my worship of the Thors, which now i hate with a passion, although i could have sworn in my YT uploads these were <,Nirvana>> THen a single 6.5 FR , like David, slew the Goliath.
Now i am a devotee of only 1 speaker design, FR/Compression combo.
Nothing from Troels Gravesen's lab could even remotely change my mind.
I was indoctrinated into the old school, now i am a awakened believer.
|
db efficiency
Efficacy, affectivity, effect.
all this comes into play when employing a speaker with any tube amplifier.
Not only SET amplifiers , also push pull requires if not demands, if to say <match made in heaven> has to be paired with a FR driver.
This is physics.
Its not rocket science.
Its common sense.
Employing any speaker of the old school box/xover design you are severely compromising the life of a tube and crippling the tubes ability to perform as it was designed to perform.
We were born and raised on box/xover designs, now its time to leave that all behind us, as we enter the 21st century audiophile cosmos. |
Although not ideal, you can mitigate a lot about a bad room by listening in the near field , there is nothing you can do to overcome bad speakers
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yep, I never had issues with room distortion , I listen very near field, + low/mid gain.
which makes room issues negligible. |
before that became dominant. I can also accept that the combination of a tube amplifier and speaker could alter the sound enough to be accepted as an inseparable unit,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All tube amplification must, w/o exception, be paired with a FR/Horn tweet.
Tube amps(SET/Pushpull etc) will not perform/work/function without a FR employed..
This is a cardinal rule which can not be compromised in any other speaker design.
Tube amplification + FR,
= 2 sides of the same coin.
|
FR = Full Range .. HA! I get it
unfortunately, despite your passion, you are incorrect. Full range drivers as dletch2 pointed out are inherently flawed, just like all speakers are inherently flawed. This is the reason they are the most critical component. Obviously you prefer to live with the flaws inherent in FR drivers. However, others prefer to live with the flaws in other designs.. my preference is horns as you can see from my system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You beat me to this valid assesstion of Quote *FULL RANGE*
This very thought occured to me, just now while having morning coffee, and now i see your post, which has validity, but must be examined carefully.
FR = not full range. There is a post above somewhere on this topic, a member has tried them all, and from exp , suggests all FR need a additive tweet.
No big de4al.
Yep you heard me right no big crisis there.
*Flaws*
I've only heard this chinese clone of Diatone 6.5, In my YT vid I exclim has all things, highs, mids, bass.
Thats not true,
has bass, has mids, highs are rolled off.Terribly, No big complaint from me, AS classical muisc is 90% and in fact most music is 90% midrange, HOWEVER to have jazz/female vocals to have proper *ambience** you absoluetly must have shimmering/crystline sonics in the upper registers.
Otherwise ya ain't got nothing.
Simple solution, \add a 21st Century tweeter.
Issue resolved. TI Compression horn which can be found in the hundreds of offerings , from super budget to braek the bank priced.
Compression tweets are the finest driver in high fq's, 2nd to none
So we will have the
Midrange/bass fq's being voiced by the so misnomer driver *The Full Range* and the high fq's being delivered by the world calss , super high fidelity, 21st C driver = The Compression Horn
There now argue your case that all speakers are flawed.
Which is both true and not true.
Box/xover/Seas ScanSpeaks/Troels Gravensen are flawed to the point they are now The Dinasaur line of <,THe Wet Blanket> experience in speakers.
THese old flawed low efficient speakers are not just flawed, but useless when heard next to just about any *Fukll Range/TI Compression* set up.
This is the point of my entire postings.
Flawed yes they are, HOWEVER that minisclue lack of high fq's can be easily overcome addinga TI Horn,.
Whereas low efficient speakers, the flaws are glaring, permament, and worthless when paired with any tube amplification system.
Cables, wires, sources, amps, boutique caps, boutique resistors, go ahead and tweak all, You will only gaina Mini-Scule nuance in each component over low price to high priced.
Speakers , now here is the Elephant in the room nuance/tweak.
Speakers are everything when pair with tube amplification.
Full Range is a misnomer, Yet at least there is no wet blanket over the music such as any speaker with lower than 90db will offer.
Which is why my threshold point in sens is 94db/higher. This elimintes all traditional box/xover style The Dinasaurs.
I rest my case.
|
Obviously you prefer to live with the flaws inherent in FR drivers. However, others prefer to live with the flaws in other designs..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vs the blaring, obnoxious, horrid, flaws of the traditional box xover designs, Yes I can happily , comfortably, enJOYably listen to the flaws in the FR design. |
You know my argument is really not too difficult to follow along.
1970s,80,s90;s, 2000, 2010,
we are well into the 21st Century.
The 1970's speakers served us well.
But its high time Seas and Scan Speak delete their entire inventory of any and all drivers which are not 94+ db rated.
Yeah I know , thats like 99% of their production.
Which is why the 1 lab that will prosper over the next 50+ years is Voxativ,
All others will have to play catch-up, but its doubtful Seas and Scan Speak will be around much longer.
I say to both labs ,
you served us well,
RIP |
so you did it backwards. . The point is, various electronics are much more alike than different while speakers vary widely
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BINGO
My Shanling 3000 is onlya miniscule gain over the Cayin 17
The Jadis JS 2 Mark2 is onlya miniscule gain over the Shanling,
I could easily,,well, lets say I perfer the nuances of the JS2 Mark2.
But then I perfer my Philips 777 phono over the Jadis DAC/cd experience.
The Defy7, I could find at least 3,4,5 other tube amps at alot less cash, satisfied.
Spaekers,
Seas offers the highest fidelity speakers in the EXCEL line in the Thors. Voice the female jazz cds like live sound stage.
Very low distortion at low gain.
bass likea sub woofer with the new Mundorf <<beasty>> caps.
Midrange not muddy, not warm. at low/mid gain.
So you ask, then what is it that a single 6.5 Diatone FR did which made me realize Richard Gray was right alllll along bugging me about the Thors = The wrong speaker for the Defy7.
I had no idea what this sensitivity spec was all about.
When I hooked up the FR on one channel, the Thor on the other,,and fliped the balance , right to left and back,.
It was all clear, a true revelation. After I disconnected the Thor, I listed them here and other sites. Cheap, so far no offers, and not going to get any offers,
those dinasaurs are going to Richard's chop shop and the components dumped on ebay for pennies on the $.
My purpose here is only to expose the old technology vs the new technology.
The 1970's box/xover speaker thing, grew deep roots in my ideas as what a speaker should be all about.
FR will be my only choice as its the speaker made for all tube amplification.
Richard did not help me at all to come to this realization, He was all over the place with suggestions, nothing about FR.
This was all, 100% my research and my hard won experience.
No one has to follow any of my conclusions,
But think about it, ask yourself,, am I stuck in old ideas about what a speaker is all about.
If you get the feeling what once was my love and respect for box/xover designs, has now fliped over to , being a basher and a hater of that technoology.
You are correct.
I HATE The Seas Thors.
I hate all Troels Gravensen designs to boot.
|
The posts on this thread thread appear to have deviated considerably from commenting specifically on the original poster’s postulate. In my opinion it would be considerably more interesting if subsequent posts were to concentrate on the issue at hand.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey Pesky
Thanks for the REFOCUING of the main issues here.
Which can be stated as
1) can anyone provide evidence that a low db speaker is tube friendly?
2) which other speaker design will out perform a FR/Compression tweet with tube amplification?
Folks are posting opinions which have nothing whatsoever to do with these 2 crucial/critical/yet unresolved questions
Neither of which has been presented to the audiophile community , at least not as clean, concise as I have.
WE are in consideration of the performance of a tube amplification, , specifically which sytle of engineering designs will best suit the requirements of tube amplification.
Most are just ranting and raving opinions which have nothing at all to do with this critical question.
I am not going to rehash what I wrote above.
Only those who have actual experience with FR , canunderstand many valid points i raise in my posts.
If audiophiles wish to hang on to old rusty, crusty ideas about tube amplification and speakers required, go right ahead,
Remain in lala land.
You are missing out on acheiving high fidelity, which is the gaol of our hobby.
My wife suggests i wait til i have cash for the real deal, Berlin FR and pass up on the 2 chinese labs making clones of the Berlin :abs FR.
This is the road i will take, It will be some time before i can recover from the $1800 Thor upgrade disaster.
Box/xover designs are worthless trash AFAIC
Seas, Scanspeak, Troels Gravesen are all working with old dated trash technology. |
I‘m going to throw in the ‘weakest link‘ philosophy, although I have no personal attachment.
~~~~~
Richard Gray loaned me his baby Gray, a modded Dyanco EL35 from the 70's.
Closely matched the Jadis Defy7 which retailed for $9k.
Just about any well designed tube amp will do, but as for speakers,
Only FR will meet the requirements to voice tube amplification. |
In any case, we agree that low efficiency, multi driver speakers in boxes with complex crossovers unsuccessfully trying to get them integrated is not the way to go
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WEll yes and no, This speaker discussion is a tricky argument. AT this point i owe Troels Gravensen a apology, Treols does in fact offer a few of his designs with 92db box/xover designs. So my Thors are 87 which is rediculously low, His 92db are acceptable and may be of some interest to those not willing to go FR/Horn. My listening room is 10x12, I can not employa huge horn 3 way system and HUGE sound stage is not my goal, Easy listening , no fatigue is my goal. I'm guessing your 3 way horn system is highly accurate with stunning sound stage, But the size and most important the weight. A single 8 inch FR can be built usinga snaded plywood cabinet, UNDER!!!! 40 lbs each. HUGE benifit from a low weight, small framce speaker, Here is where Troels gets in trouble with his 2 offerings of 92db speakers, The size and WEIGHT, Some of us are getting up in age and we have no use for any speaker over say,,,50 lbs. The Thors come in at 60 lbs, just ridiculous. Not sure what Troels weight comes in at but they sure look heavy..and the price? = $$$$$$$$$ Lets go see http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htmOhh look Troels is using the SEAS Cresendo tweet, SEas flagship which is NOT 92db, more like 87 or 89, so not sure where he is getting hhis 92db out of this speaker, Weight? Does not say,,looks like she's a 100+ pounder, 60 lbs over my threshold. + the price? does not say, To havea local carpenter to build that exact cabinet $3k + the xovers/drivers , add another $3k+ so lets say $6k fora *92db* box/xover style speaker, VS Voxativ's 96db AC1C single driver. @ $1900, build your own cabinet @ $100. weight, under 50 lbs. Troels does very nice speakers in his lab, thing is they are dated vs the new technology from Voxativ. Voxativ allows the music to flow naturally, you connect to the sound as if it is alive, a living presence. Troel's designs sounds like music comming froma box. It attacks you. Mostly due to the low 92 db sensitivity. Yeah 92db is low in my book. The Golden Threshold is 94db. |
complex crossovers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Huge advantage concerning Full Range, no xovers needed.
I wish to continue employing the term *Full range* concerning the single driver design, Although as many have pointed out, these single drivers lack the high fq resolution.
Still when we consider 90% of our music is in the bass/midrange fq's.
Its as close to completeing the fq range as possibe voicing from a single driver.
I suspect the Voxativ's drivers might even meet the 95% fq range in their designs, Making a horn wteet only necessary for the *ambience*(in classical music) as Richard Gray wisely points out.
He really hit the nail on the haed bringing up that essential key issue, which i could not figure out.
*Ambience*
My Diatone cone 6.5 lacks the sparkle, shimmers in the high register. So I can confirm some Ful range are missing top end.
I can say no more about Voxativ's performance until I actually get the driver in my system.
|
Here you can witness a early test model Voxitva in action 2015. Grant it the room edxpensive treatment, regardless I can hear the sonics of the driver , separated from room acoustical treatment. This early model Viox blows away any/every/all box/xover designs in its class. That is under $20K and weiging less than 100 lbs. Box/xovers can not compete with this level of high fidelity which i have coined the term ~~Super High Fidelity~~~ = SHF. Which is a more appropriate term for Full range in general, well no actually Full range will now be tagged High Fidelity whereas the Term Super High Fidelity can and will only be allpied to Voxativ. , All Vox's speakers are ~~SHF~~~ You can not employ this term SHF with any speaker in existence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfWL7-EF2vU |
already @ 2900+ views, going to bust 4k views come sunday, ALOTTT of folks are very curious as to how this discussion shootout is going to end.
Will the box/xover traditional style speakers which Troels Gravesen is building going to be left standing? To play just one more day.
There is not even 1 box/xover/trad speaker in existence that would tempt me to give up my FR/TI Horn dream.
The A/B test with Seas, which he Excel are the best drivers in the world, vs the single 6.5 Diatone.
My Thors will never ever be heard by these ears ever again. can't/won;'t happen.
Seas Exel Thors are the worlds finest **OLD tradition** drivers made today.
Best of The Old vs The Best of the New shootout.
Seas really dropped the ball, not pursuing FR way back when they 1st developed the Exotic FR @ $800 each.
What happened? Did the Seas engineers ears go deaf.
Anyone at seas could have heard their old tech drivers were just that, **dated dinasaurs** next to their Exotic FR.
Now they are wayyyy behind the curve as is ScanSpeak, Both will go defunct in comming years, Voxativ will push both in the graves.
RIP |
By sunday this topic will have over ~~~~3,000~~~ views,
Just waiting on the box/xover fanatics to bring on some better, more substance aginst FR and for xover/box tradtional style speakers,
At this point in this topic, I wish to thank all the members here for keeping things civil, respectful as honorable gentlemen and scholars .
~~~just wish we had more participation , I know there are some of you here that are side lining on us, and wish you would jump in this converstaion.
|
Maybe Richard can loan one of his SET amps, and compare to Defy7, If SET wins out I'll buy Ricahrd's SET, and dump the glorious Defy7 with all new Mundorf SESGO + F&T caps. New navships internal silver wiring. New copper speaker posts.
NOT selling on the cheap. She'll be priced mid level. ain't gonna take a hit. |
I bet any money, If you tooka group of audiophilesm, seasoned ones, not greenies who don’t know how to listen to a speakers performance/grading qualities. So we placea huge paper thin curtain in front a massive collection of speakers,
lerts see amp will be one of Jadis’s , lets take the jadis Orch Refer, nice lil amp, no tell ya what, Lets take Richard Gray’s modded Dyanco ST70 amp, The Baby Gray, something anyone can afford, EL34’s.
Source, any old cd player, cabels Rat Shak <specials> we used to buy back in the 70;’s.
OK now, we will blind test speakers,
I’d bet any money the **Full range** 8 inch + TI Horns will get the most votes over all of Troel Gravensen’s ScanSpeak/Seas designs with 8 inch midwoofers. .
Once we pull the curtain after testing,, folks will be shocked their beloved box/xover designs has lost the contest.
You don’t believe me, Richard Gray tells me about these type stunts he pulls on audiophiles with their rigid hot heads. |
@ Pesky wabbit
Of course I ran some opinions which may not be always true, but in general, with most of my classical cds (LPs might vary nuances to a greater degree) Richard Gray's modded Dyanco ST70 el34 sounded very VERY close to the Defy7 kt88
At least from faint memory.
The 3 diigital sources, the Shanling did show up a winner, but onlya nuance superior to the Cayin.
I might even go so far as to say a well designed ss amplification may be acceptable if pair with full range/TI compression. And thats a huge break from my idea that the only way to experience living music is via tubes.
Thats how much important I am placing on the speakers as the main critical compoent in a system.
So if we are talking FR/TI compression tweet, it really might not even matter which amplification one is employing.
And if we could have Richard Gray set up a massive blind test, with all sorts of dif amplification, , sources, both digital, phono, ahhh tell ya what, throw in some cables, wires boutique caps, etc on the xovers and inside amps,
Might take a week to complete this **whole system shoot out**, Then have Richard tally his results,, trust me, alot of old audiophiles mightm, in fact will be very UN-PLEASANTLY surprised at their voting.
These shootouts are slippery.
Richard has staged such events , only with a few **mystery* amplifiers, resulting in a few participants steaming mad that he has been **duped/tricked*
Both with amplifiers and speakers.
**The RG Experiment* would have most of us here on audiogon, scratching our heads, as to how we could ever get so many of our long held, cherished, rock-solid opinions/ideas, stubborn views on equipment and brand names, so so ~~~~ wrong~~~. Leaving scratching our heads.
This is the end result of this ~~~RG Complete Shootout~~~
Voxativ would come out the clean, clear winner of all and every component involved. That is to say a much higher %age would vote Vox as winner in the speaker category.
At least everyone would get the speaker votes right.
caveat here: provided we have honest UN-biased participants.
Good luck with that. |
Richard Gray finally wrote me about pairing the Voxativ's Ac1C driver with the Jadis Defy7 mark2, 100 wattts channel, 12 Kt88's, its a beast of a amp.
1st Ricahrd tells me quite often past 8 months, the Thors are <,the wrong speaker for the Defy>>> ,
now he tells me the Vox high sens is not the <<ideal/right? speaker for the Defy.
I just wrote Ricahrd, <Look we only have 2 choices, box/xover low sens or FR high sens>>
Then he says the Vox single will requirea large cabinet, as i told him i will build mid size, lighter weight.
He says not doing.
I can see Vox has small bookshelf speakers, not sure the size, maybe 6.5 driver.
anyway.
Richard is throwing road blocks in my path to the Vox project.
I need to havea long discussion at his shoop there on Jeff Hwy, acoss from Oschner Hospital, monay, He is only open mon-wednesday.
We are going to get to the bottom of this speaker mis-match thing.
If anyone has experience in this matching tube + speaker please chime in.
Richard says the match is the SET amps,
Vox has one, like $20k-$30k can't recall price, She's a beaute.
But I have no cash for another amp.
I'm part german and bull headed, I am going Vox for either success or ~~~disaster~~~~
Thing is, I have the chinese Diatone 6./5 and find it very pleasing, and could easily live with that driver + a TI Horn, with no complaints.
But I'm looking for more. and @ $2k, its attainable. |
PS: im quite confused by the Voxativ hype. The frequency response is average at best. I feel like audiophile community look at the prices and automatically assume Voxativ are the best cause they are extremely highly priced.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@ Murphythe cat
Quite a impressive DIY project you have going on. The 4 inch Fostex is not enough bass for me. This 6.5 Diatone chinese clone, is not bad, livable/doable, But looking fora bit more
So I figure if Im going to pay $2k for the Voxativ, better go 8 inch, I've livied with these Thor dual 6.5's, nice bass, but want the lower registers to come through.+ a single wider cone , as i listen at low gain, nice easy relaxed sound.
I'm not after perfection, uphoria, Nirvana, Speaker heaven, Not at all.
Consider i lived with the 87db Thors for 20 years, A 8 Vox will be as close to Mt Everest as these ears will get in my remaining years.
Tradeoffs
WE all agree, tarde offs on every amp, source, speaker.
I am waiting on Richard Gray to provide at least 3 alternatives for my Defy KT88 amplifier. He says FR is the wrong speaker, same vote as my Thors, So far he has not written back.
The 3 alternatives to my Voxativ, I am more than surem, all 3 will have ~~issues~~ tradeoffs that will be close to the Thors ~~faults/weaknesses/issues~~~
You say the Vox chart looks dreadful.
I can not read charts, diagrams,
I know one tech on YT says charts are 1 thing, listening is yet another,,Wait tahts the founder of Voxativ stating this idea.
I've heard the Vox only via YT uploads, I LOVEEEEE what I heard. + I;'ve read some comments from YTers who attended the Audio Shows, both said to the effect
~~~Voxativ was best room at the show~~~ For what reason would they be biase? Even lie?
No reason at all.
You can raed comments all over the Inet that Voxativ's speakers are the finest musical voiced speaker they have ever experienced.
Its all over the Inet testimonies from real audiophiles.
You can not find even 1 speaker which has such accolades, super high prasies.
Vox is the only speaker where folks say ~~Simply the finest~~~
Why would they lie?
I see no reason they are selling snakeoil,. Not like the snakeoil we have all been guzzling these past 40+ years about speakers.
Vox is the New Kid on the block, Which is why there is so much resistece. The Lab is in Berlin. My guess is sales are far higher in the EU vs the USA.
can anyone here provide a alternative choice in speakers for the Defy7 KT88, other than Voxativ entry model, all i can Afford after The Thor $1900 upgrade broke my bank.
You also mention Vox are ~~high priced~~ Most are wayyy out our budgets. But they offera few entry models at near $2k-$3k.
Considering the used market for box/xover designs here on audiogon, most are in the $$$$$$$$, wayyy over the $2k mark + Shipping = $$$$$
= Voxativ's are budget/low priced/ = a steal.
Worlds finest sounding pre high fidelity speaker for alotttt less than any of Troel Gravesen's 2 or 3 way xover designs
Vox are best bang for the buck.
|
@Pesky wabbit
please ck your messages
|
That comes out to 132lbs sir, @ $249/lb, that will be $32,868 + tax.
~~~~~~~
huh?
@ who?
Not sure, is this a jest, concerning the idea << a heavy SET isa good SET>>>
Joke like ~~ Prime Rib Eye by the pound~~~ amplifier x the lb~~~
|
SET amps wayyy too havy and too pricey,
Sticking with the Defy |
Hows about a true Loftin-White with NO CAPS in the signal path to mess things up. Design elegance always trumps boutique components. i‘m available.......
And by the way, you haven‘t addressed any of the issues I have raised.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~Loftin White looks stunningly gorgeous,
A bit heavy and price???
also can not recall what exact issue you wish i respond to.
Refresh please
Richard mentioned for a really good SET, amp should weigh over 100 lbs.
= not doable.
My Defy7 is 25 lbs too heavy for me. @ 75 lbs.
I am about to have Ricahrd put chrome handels near the trans, for easy handling, But then becomes unsellable.
Has anyone hearda push pull with FR single drivers?
How was the result?
|
I was seriously thinking about adding this BIFrost Seas kit as a alternative to the Thor, Just now i cked the db sens Are you ready ~~~~~~84db sens~~~~~~ Seas is going in reverse. They are wayyy behind the new technology. They need to invent kits which are at the very least 92db, if not 93db sens at the very lowest range. THis is the Flagship Cresendo tweeter. http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=386:bifros-seas-diy-kits&...Just got in a DavidLouis HK Vifa Neodynium clone tweeter, Much superior highs vs the Millenium, The issues with the Millenium and I'm guessing the newest flagship The Cresendo is theyy try become a mid range anda tweeter all in 1. Neither of which come through with success, due to the extemely low sens, 87 db. Its <,wet blanket>> tweeter. The $50 /pair Vifa clone works just fine, vs Seas $700 pair flagship ~~bombs~~ |
Elegance in design always beats brute force
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well yeah, i can agree. I'm sure Richard would not disagree.
Even he is aware his ~~The Baby Gray~~~ Dynaco ST70 EL34 mod is wayyy less than 1/2 the weight of the Defy yet performs quite close in sonics.
Not sure what the LoftiWhite gonna cost me and need the weight. I am old now, can't lift more than say 50-60 lbs, make that 50/lower.
can you provide a link for purchasing the LoftiWhite.
The guts look stunning.
|
@ larryi and @ phusis Yes exactly, Trade offs is expected, But the tradeoffs employing the Thors is not worth the fine vocals, bass. have to add gain to get results and this means stress and = music has a certain attack quality. There are nice things about the seas Thors , but next to any high sens FR, it isa wet blanket speaker = dinasaur. Although Ines at Vox and Richard both hold the belief SET's are ideal amps for FR. Here you can listen to a PP with the 6.5 Diatone 95db, Vifa tweet 91db. Its not bad at all, in fact quite nice, = could live with this speaker and not go any further. But my quest takes further. From the SET uploads on YT, there is not 1 that I can say <,WOW>> I am using the tweet section of the Thors for the Vifa. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxdfV1TbTLA |
Seems like the Speaker shootout at the OK Corral i started wayyy back in 2001? has not been settled.
This topid is now
Speaker Shootout Part 2.
WE've all come alonggg way since then.
It was simply amazing how the single Diatone 6.5 driver blew away the Seas Thor, all due to one tiny characteristic specification.
~~Sensitivity~~.
This to me is critical , all important ingredient when conisderinga speaker, Test/charts, I am not the least bit interested.
The Diatone/Vifa might have peaks and valleys, all over the chart, off axis, etc.
I am not even the least interested.
If speaker A sounds superior to speaker B, thats all that counts, But then we must consider the listener's ears, = what exactly is he looking for.
as Mentioned by larryi above.
It all comes down to ,,well yes and no, If any audiophile can honestly say the Thors sound superior to the Diatone 6.5, I question his ability to hear, or he may need a hearing aid,
Juts seems to me, the new developments in single point source/FR drivers over the past 10 years, has resulted in significant gains in high fidelity resolution.
This is the purpose to this topic. To shed light on the new FR technology as the true champion, the king of all speaker designs. 2nd to none.
Now we need to explore what amplification is allowed to be matched to these new single source drivers.
ZSeems the SET amplification has been officially coveted as the only amplification for the task.
But there are draw backs with the SETs. They do not produce music likea PP can in certain complex, hard driven signals.
They can get overwhelmed witha single 845 trying to master all the complexities thrown its way.
PP has the muscle to channel all that high voltage music.
|
Winder if we took a blind test with Voxativ FR and used 3 amps,
SS, PP and 845 SET, with full blown orchestra like Schnittke /BIS label and Pettersson/BIS Segerstam, which are superior recording sonics vs the later recordings on BIS with Lindberg..and see who can guess which amps are in performance. Along with some full orchestra jazz/female vocals/LP source.
And which 1 amp comes out in the winner circle.
|
Obviously neither set up would work, so we need to finda happy middle ground
If we all agree the new wide band single source (Horn tweet is part of this single source , 2 drivers meet perfectly = Single Source) the new that is, out with the old tech FR,
offer the most musical experience of any speaker designs.
And there are a few labs engineering the most neutral, natural, dynamic amplification vs the 2 competitors SET/SS.
All that is needed is to pick any of the new tech FR , add in your fav PP amplification, and you could have that magical system you've been always seeking and searching.
This just might be the best compromise set up offering gorgoeous voicing for female vocals in your jazz LPs, and for rich ,deep , detalied full blown orchestra.
And a set up anyone can afford. None of this break the bank paypal debt for 10 years.
Its a win~win~win~win system.
I ve considered this set up from every/all angles, I just can not see any alternatives that would compete with my The Ideal Stereo System. |
Kinda makes amplifier choice crucial to the system performance in my book.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not in my limited experience, as i stated earlier,
Richard's 2 loan tube amps, performed quite well vs the much more pricey and beefier Defy7.
It was not like night/day difference.
The 3 digital souces , had close performance.
It was the Diatone FR vs the xover/box design which revealed a wide margin in performance.
From this test, seems to me : all tube amplification requires a high sensitivity speaker.
Futher my testing does not take in the idea, SET amplification is The Ideal power source for wide band drivers.
SET amps as we all know have limitations,.. these flaws tend to surface when it comes to certain styles of music.
I'm not buying in the idea SET's are superior in wide band speakers.
When my 2nd FR arrives in a few weeks, I'll see if Richard will loan out his *treasured* SET amps.
I doubt it,
But this way I could get a real experience of these 2 beautiful tube amplifiers in a high sens speaker.
|
Explains the infatuation with small, FR speakers.
Without disparaging the OP, the budding audiophile can learn from this thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You would be very surprised at one of Ricahrd Gray's ~~~ Guess what speaker or amp (he perforams both tricky blind auditions) is now playing behind the curtain. ~~~ He chuckles as to how often seasoned audiphiles can get their guesses WRONG, some folks get hoy headed to the point ofa fist in the face.
So small room yes, but even ina larger setting a high fidelty 8 FR will knock your socks off.
Yet can also accustom itself to a small room setting with pleasant richness, never ever do you feel under attack, as with the other <brands>
As to 2nd point, Correct. That is the main goal of this thread.
Had someone wayyy back in 2000ish when I opened one of Agons longest running threads, ~~Speaker Shootout at the OK Corral~~~ seems in all the k'sm of posts, somehow i missed out on the FR alternative, Electro stats were HUGE favor back then, so they along with xover brand took up most of my attention.
I knew i did not like SET sound, so FR somehow got deleted from my serious considertion.
Now some 20 years later, I am FR/wide band /high sensitivity worlds biggest fan-atic.
Guess you can;t tell
;--))
anyway. sure glad Douglas saw through my rants as to the main goal of this topic.
Newbies can now look at the speaker mountain from different angles and make their own wise, well researched decision
In these troubled times, makinga speaker purchase can be a 1 time event for some newbies here.
They wish to make it count.
Besides note the speaker board, 99% is all about xover traditional designs.
I feel thats a bit biased if not tunnel vision.
FR technology has come alonggg way, lets not shove FR off the table.
Fr will give xover low sens speakers a run for their money in comming decades.
Its just a matter of EDU and time.
I can see a new revolution in speaker choices.
Remember when we would go ina audio store and ck out the rooms full of all sorts of xover designs,, hahaha, I picked the Philips 2 way, paper 8 woofer, nice tweeter.
I thought they were the most cleanest,, Then I placed the next to the Thors and dumped the Philips 425's for $50 on craigslist.
Now i am dumping the Thors.
Never could go back-wards to xover low sensitivity speakers.
But hey whatever floats your boat. |
