Speakers The single most critical component
Audiogon discussion board Amp/Preamps 40k comments posted Speakers ONLY 30k comments posted, Logically should be Amps 40k, speakers 100k comments posted. If you fail to make the best choice in speakers fidelity voicing, it really does not matter which amplifer you have. Neither source, LP vs cd vs DAC vs streaming super high digital. cabels ,, inter connects, Boutique capacitors. Tube A vs Tube B. None of this is of any importance if one has a lousey speaker Lousey = sensitivity lower than 92db. 92db just barely makes the grade as acceptable, At 92db, dinasaur-ish . Very difficult to come by traditional /xovver designs with a 92db spec. There might be 1 out there, but price? Weight? Again 2 obstacles going traditional/xover. And thats a big IF, at 92db. Wide band all begin at 94db/up.. Nice, super sweet. |
I rest my case. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well yeah i did make a few bold daring opinions. , seems I just now ran into a very interesting amplifier to match perfectly (priced right and weigth perfect) while doing other research I had heard of Decware, but not investigated. This really looks like it would make a dif in sonics vs the Defy. Some things you can just look at and feel its different. hummm I just might list my Defy,,,,,as i really do not need 100 watts a channel, as i listen at low gain https://www.decware.com/newsite/TORIIJR.html Pity can not find many YT uploads on this amp, Also does not have my fav imput tubes in the pre section, the 12AU and 12AX. For me, tahtsa big issue. Back with my Defy, I'm thinking once i get a wide band 8 in, I will better make the judgement about PP paired with wide band/high sensitivity single source driver. 3 weeks. I would advise all newbies to NOT make any decision to purchase any piece of equipemnt, until you have spent time in research, Not always the case though, The caveat here is, when/if you see a Jadis intergrated on the market, do not hesitate, or it will go in a flash. Best bang. |
Trade offs and compromises, All components have weaknesses and strengths. This is a given. I've looked over SET's, I have no interest. I've looked over box/xover/traditional design speakers, I have no interest. Both components have flaws,,, which will not meet my personal listening experience goals. Likewise, PP and wide range/high sensitivity drivers, might have flaws which others will not accept compromises. w/o having access to dealers shops which provide listening/testing pre purchase, we are required to do our homework, research. Lets imagine Seas came out with drivers that matched Exel performance but with a sensitivity at 93db. WEll then sure now this <<magical future driver> conventional/traditional/xover box design would be the ideal match for the PP amp. There might be a 92+ sensitivity xover design out there somewhere, I just have not found it and have no interest in looking. Going wide band driver/Horn with my PP amp, any compromises/weaknesses will just have to be accepted. there is no such thing as the perfect speaker. We this, we try that. Hopefully we do not try too many , as it can and will cause issues in ones finances and thus relationships. Others may hate a wide band high sens driver paired witha PP amp, We are all free to pick and chose as we wish. Some may even go so far as loving the sound of their 2 watt SET amp paired with the Magnepan 30.7 4 panel Electrostat. To each his own. |
Just one more tiny rant, then i'm done how about this setup vs the suggestion above, 2 watt/Magnepan 30.2 4 panel How about this possiblity Jadis JA800 4 mono block, each weigs 200 lbs paired with say a 8 inch wide range 110 sensitivity single driver. Everyone is free to make their own calls as to how they wish to enjoy music in their listening room. My room is tiny at 10x12, so contraints on both amp and speakers does limit my choices. Anyway, I plan to challenge the SET as The Ideal amplification for a wide band high sensitive single source driver. There area few YT vids, with this setup, however the choice in music , as always , is light instrumental, no female vocals. making it impossible to make any determination as to how the performance came off. Which is why i use 2 reference cds, Gatemouth Brown/Gateswings and Sophia Milman Beautiful Love. If Richard would be so kind to allow loan of his SET vs the PP, will post 2 vids |
Just out of curiosity, just wondering if there were other threads showing interest in Voxativ Sure enough there area few. However, some have been DELETED, CANCEL CULTURE, Moderattors shut a few down. Why? Is audiogon for free speech Or against out constitutional rights to free respecful, civil speech?? Moderators? Well this thread is close to get shut down, I am sure. sad, if so, Even if it does, there were more than 5000 views in less than 1 week. I think this is a Audiogon count record since this forum began. So if we have 5000 views, this shows more folks are gaining interest in all things audio and increases Audiogon popularity as a audio chat forum where new ideas can be discussed and explored. This is what makes Audio a new adventure, and hopefully will allow newbies to make better more critical judgements in their purchases. Thats all I am attempting to do with this topic. Think outside the box. If I have acheived this, I am not at all disgruntled about my recent $1800 loss in box xover upgrades. . Kind Regards. |
Acoustical treatmenst? Not my interest. I'm into near field, small room listening. I should have stated this at the beginning. Some of you have cathedral size listening rooms, So testung results may vary from my room acoustics. Also note, many of you listen at high db volume. This is yet another factor, I listen at a comfortable low db. However I did crank up the vol on the last video and there was no break up, no distortion at all with the tiny 6.5 Diatone. You crank upa xover low efficiency speaker, the sound will attack if not assult the listener, small room or large, does not matter. Over the years I've never been impressed with any traditional xover designs, most were just obnoxiously muddy, polluted the musical image. These wide band Diatone, $110/pair, really have out performed in most areas of speaker characterists if we add all up together. The Seas Thors, which represent the finest old school drivers, in the world, just can not hold up against a wide band/no xover driver. I have no idea , can not comprehend why FR/wide band is not the main topic interest here on Audiogon these past 10 years or so. I imagined if only i can upgrade the Thor xovers with high quality Mundorf caps, now i will have a reborn Thor. Wrong, the nuance was ~~miniscule~~ Thats when I on my own, decided to ck out FR/wide band. Once you auditione a wide band driver, you'll never consider going back to old school. I guess it all comes down to different ~cups of tea~ |
My hope is newbies comming into this fantastic , most wonderful and can be very rewarding hobby, will say, <<Gee this guy has been around all audio for longer than i was born,,and he has completely totally rejected ~~The Standard xover design speaker~~, whats up with that?? This is my hope, to plant seeds of change, That they maight be enlightened and with minds opened, awareness sparked by this new technological advances in speaker design. This way they can make more careful, studied, purposeful decisions when purchasing what may be theirs for The KEEPS. This is my dream and hope. Xovers, ha!, = means the driver has crippling flaws and serious issues. in all things voicing true high fidelity. Think, say this word over and over ~~Efficiency~~ = Effectiveness, performance, helping the amplifier to works its inner magical qualities. High = good Low = bad. |
research involves viewing on-line videos. I don't see how that can be of ANY value in evaluating sonic performance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes and no,. Agree its very dif to make a rock solid determination of how a speaker voices, its qualities all based ona YT vid. Yet is larryi makes a YT video and then we meet in person. How or why would your voice be any different from what i hear on the YT vid? 2ndly Im my 40 yrs spealer experience, not a single one matches what the Diatone 6.5 does for musical presentation. I can see absoluetly no reason whatsoever to continue with any/every/all xover standard/traditional speaker design, not when there is a high fidelity wide band in the room. There is not even 1 xover/traditional speaker that would change my ideas about the FR supreme victory over the old standard design. Not sure why there is so much resistence on this board for FR/wide band single source??? When the Voxativ is up N running in my system, I will upload many YT videos, showing off what this driver can do, BUt my video will be superior to any current YT Voxativ vids, all the current YT vids on Voxativ have poor choice in music selection, which does nothing to reveal the full potential of this driver. Voxativ drivers are only limited by the associated equipment it is paired with. |
The very best speakers disappear. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Excellent addition to this discussion. Your post is timely and helpful towards understanding of ~~The Speaker Choice Dilemma~~ Can we take your ~~disappear~ to say, ~voices the music as close as possible to the very actual studio recording~~ provided the studio engineers are capable of producing high fidelity~~. WE all know there are a few lousey quality recording in the catalogue. I would add, what speaker can present music, witha certain natural-ness, neutral-ness, channeling the dynamics which are in the actual studio performance, , Further w/o the listener feeling his sensibilities are being attacked in any aggressive manner. lastly, zero fatigue , or as close to zero as possible. In my rather limited experience of xover/traditional designs, most have not meet these criteria. Sure xover/traditional low efficiency designs might sound fantastic to the listener (I thought the world of my Philips 375 2 ways, , then the Thors were The Ultimate) but when enters the room a high fidelity wide band/FR driver, now the listener is made fully aware of all the faults and distortions added to the music by his most perfect xover/traditional design. FR are the new kids on the block and they mean business. This is how I see the future of audio comos, 1) That speakers will be understood as The Most Critical Component ( King Amps will now have to , regretfully to many of you here on audiogon, take a distant 2nd place in terms of critical importance ina audio system) 2) That wide band/FR /kigh efficiency drivers will be understood as the most perfect ideally voicing driver ever engineered. These 2 objectives/goals will take another 10+ years brought to cognition. 1st awareness, next the pondering, reflecting, last the fruits of my hopes that FR/wide band will become The 21st Century Speaker by choice. 10 years, we will see some changes take place. The FR/wide band is comming into its own by low price drivers from Dayton, Emminence and others these past 10 years, Mostly used for car audio applications. We owe alot to the early models , Fostex, Lowther, JBL, Seas, for important engineering which the new FR labs have built upon. Its up to us to acknowledge these new 21st C developments and take the FR new designs into consideration for our next speaker purchase. FR/High sens speakers are ~~Win~win~Win~Win, the only weakness, but simply, economical fixable~~ is the roll off on the high register. But as i say, the newest high fidelity FR may actually voice the high fq's w/o the need to add a Horn tweet. I havea budgest 8 FR arriving in 3 weeks, At that point I can make a determination, The Diatone 6.5 has severe high roll off. Miniscule fault considering everything the driver does well with mids/bass. |
@mozartfan a course in concise writing would benefit you greatly
Agree At least my content speaks for itself, no rhetoric, no fluff, no lies, frauds to lead astray, no hype , no propaganda, unlike alot of what you see, hear and read all over the Inet,, news, speaker manufactures, audio retailers, etc, Often I see others who possess polished skills in expressing their ideas, but when you boil it down, it all evaporates. Substance over fluff is my expression methodology. |
~~~ Relentless, Avenging, Controversial, The Adversary~~ WEll it was a lobgggg time a comming, All dinasaurs are fated to perish. With that we will try to place this speaker shootout in a clearer perspective. We need to list the negatives and positives of each design. Xover Traditional/conventional/= The Popular vote all their goods and evils. Then we list the pluses and minuses of FR/Wide band single point source drivers. OK so lets begin Lets have 3 weaknesses concerning xover speakers we've all been listening to since the AR's came out in 1975, or Seas A25's, 1960's. . Then we list the 3 best things we love about the xover things we find difficult to give up. Then someone who knows more about FR than I do, can list the 3 positive and 3 negatives of this design. In this super competitive world, I think this is a fair challenge. Consider this contest like the Speaker Olympics. Gold is the winner, and silver ,,,well thats the loser. |
One could argue that the most important range to cover with a single driver is from about 200Hz to 1500Hz. This is the frequency range where we use timing information for location. Outside that frequency range, flat frequency response and consistent L/R frequency response would be more important
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is where the critcal fq's are voiced in our music. Especially for classical music, and also voice in jazz recordings. Accuracy in voice reproduction is so important for jazz fans. Bass? Just about any speaker i've herad has some degree of acceptable bass. Highs, , there are so many choices now in high quality tweeters. Truth is , music in the lowest and highest fq range, there is not much there. Not enough to be so concerned. Wide band /FR do have this miniscle limitation in the lowest, highest fq range. Not a big deal. Just as long as a speaker gets the critcal 200-2k fq range right, I'm a very happy camper. |
To quote someone: The 10 most important components of a hifi system. 1 thru 8 - The Speakers 9. The room 10. Everything else. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 100% in agreement with your *source* , which may well be Medialies, and hows that for a handle *Media-lies*. There are many excellent comments from Douglas fleschler dietch2 larryi I hope to address all your excellent imput based on a long valuable experience in speaker issues, problems, if not ~Failures~ To acheieve the desired results. And your thoughts are written with kind consideration, respectful and not argumentative. Our interest in all things audio should be expressed openly, courteous ,which will allow new understandings in these obscure, showdowy matters of speaker designs. |
Yes those olde FR drivers are legendary and have served well. Perahps as good as the newer labs models, who knows. How many audiophiles would gladly give up their xover/traditional low db speakers once they listened to a high quality wide band FR driver in their system. Tahts the point of this topic. Past 40 yaers , xover low db has been center stage , talk-of-the-town. Just look at Audiogon's speaker forum,. For every 1 topic/posting on wide band/FR, there are 1000 posts for the xover model speaker. Look at the sellers page, I've yet to see even 1 FR used driver for sale here, There are a few on ebay. Folks just do not part with their wide band driver. Hopefully this topic which has been Audiogon's #1 views topic and will most likely remain #1 for some weeks. Awareness, this is the main goal of this topic. Awakeness, awareness, there does exist another speaker other than brank x,y,z xover traditional design. You do have options to the xover low efficiency speaker. I just feel xover have become so dominate a design, weve been brainwashed, its like propaganda now. Full Range drivers exist and are a reality, FR high efficency drivers represent a dangerous threat to xover traditional speakers sales. Wide band/FR is the speaker choice for the 21st century discerning audiophile. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At this juncture of the topic, I would like to express my gratitude towards all the moderators here on Audiogon for allow this topic to continue, although I am aware i may have presented some of my ideas in a pugnacious attitude, which on another site may have qualified for * The Ban* This shows you guys are willing to continue to keep audiogon as a free fair open forum for all things of interest in this incredible wonderful hobby. By granting folks free , civil speech, you are making sure Audiogon will remain as the premiere all ~things~ audio discussion forum in the world. I know many members here , along with me applaud this generous spirit of giving members the freedom to express their ideas and thoughts.. Especially at a time in this society where **cancel culture** is gaining ground as the accepted norm. Which canceling of views as *Not acceptable* only makes this world worse off. Kindly maozartfan |
Many can’t afford the luxury of a binary approach offered by a main speaker system like yours, and will instead have to make settlement with a solution that more pragmatically dictates the speakers, in conjunction with their interaction with the acoustics, as the (by far) most coloring part of the chain.
~~~~~~~~~~~ Ahh yes, the financing of our audio dreams. Some of us here have a limited budget. Thus wish to make their purchase decisions as their *best possible*, of all the countless choices in the wide vast speaker world. IMean if I had the cash, this *Field Coil* single driver looks quite interesting vs the magnet system. But since its so far out my budget, I must exclude that design from any considertion. I have no idea how the field coil even works, but will discuss with Richard Gray when i see him tomorrow, well this morning at his shop. He knows about these things. Richard has been a great mentor, and a source for accurate understanding about speaker designs based on his wide range of experience of all things audio. Considering the prices of xover design speakers next to the more competitive priced new wide band engineered speakers , is yet another factor which may decide the future of speaker sales. The cabinet for a single source driver can be constructed by just about anyone with a few common tools and a few sheets of 2x4 sanded plywood from Home Depot. A cabinet both affordable and lightweight. |
Mute , not adding anything to the converstaion. Lets pretend the new developments in wide band single source drivers, do not exist. Lets continue in the 1970's AR/Bose/B&W speaker journey. Those who decide to switch over will be richly rewarded. I have not heard even 1 complaint concerning FR speakers, descriptions of only the highest accolades , experience gushing with shouts of joy and praise. Still not 1 taker on my Seas Thors, which just so happen to be the King of all speaker designs in the low db range. Hows that for demand in ya old designs. |
I think the speaker is the last piece in the audio upgrade path for two reasons:
~~~~~~~~~~~ Interesting, but no cigar, at least 2 old seasoned audiophiles in this thread have already concurred with my position. The speaker voices the electrons hz flow. Speakers determine the voice of your sysytem. Its like the voice on a human, speakers are the vocal chords in your system. I really can't stand xover designs, They are inefficient and bleed dry the other components, like a blood sucking leech. If FR designs did not exist I would not be at all interested in hifi audio. |
Let it go man!
It you xover cult fanatics that just CAN"T let it go, Not me, You guys are the ones that will not let the dinasurs DIE So I go back to my listening room after above post,,and type in on my CP, field coil speakers Try to get some idea of just what is a field coil speaker, At least some idea. So I type in field coil speaker,,and what pops up as 1st hit ,,, so its not only me who has ~~Seen the light~~~ Others too have seen this vision. This is only just the beginning, Fight it all you want, supress, repress, deny, bash and trash the new tech in FR development, Its onlya matter of time before the dinasurs get dumped for the new speaker of choice Of course YOU can't admit nor have eyes to see this future. You guys adore worship and are slaves for life to the old traditional low efficiency distorted polluted xover dinasaur. Here is the link, I've not read it yet, Just ran here to post it. Keep on listening to your xover muffled boxes which takesa hercules to life them. I'll stay with what I know it the best and wisest choice in voicing music. Tweak Geek Since 2003, I've been around audio since mid 70's. Thats 80 yeras combined opinion, Both in complete agreement FR is the speaker of choice for this 21st Century. The xover cult will continue on another 50 years, Afterwards folks will pick up YOUR xover box at a garage sale fora few $'s. and say to his buddies **yeah, so this is what they used to listen to back then,,well its great for my background while i mess around in my garage, for $10 ain;'t so bad* https://www.tweekgeek.com/blog-tweek-geek-speek/field-coils-are-the-future/ |
So I double cked the google results on <Field Coil>> scrolled down and hit on this April 2021, Ht Off The Press Field Coil design from japanese technicians. Its long article , but will hold your interest, I just fliped through it and came across something that confirmed my hunch concerning more complex music in a FR driver, PP ~~may be~~ the better option. My hunch was validated. The golden rule of SET amplification ~~Only~~ for FR high sensitivty speakers, may need a tweak in the theory. Field Coil is not my interest, for budgetary reasons. Still , concerns my main thrust to my arguments agaisnt xover old designs. High sensitivity is the future of speaker designs. Due to the higher effectivity producing a purer higher fidelity in the musical ambience. Loud-speakers are a thing of the past, A new day is dawning. https://www.dagogo.com/feastrex-makoto-loudspeaker-system-review/ |
Field Coil YT vid just posted days ago One word ~~WOW~~ just WOW. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqP5sQqKCZo |
The first question I will ask is why you are so insistent that a full range driver is the ultimate in reproduction.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The single 6.5 Diatone FR just blew away the world calss xover speaker, the Seas Thors, Immediaetly knew audiophiles all have the wrong speakers in their systems, And they have no clue about that wrongness. Thats why i am pugnacious in this quest to enlighten the audiophiles to stop considering xover box dsigns and make the FR/wide band discovery. If more folks support wide band drivers, perahps one day some lab willl find a way to produce mass market Field Coil and then we can all jump from Neodmium magnets FR to FC FR. Now wouldn't that be nice. But as longs as xover designs are being marketed as high fidelity, , resonably priced FR FR can not , will not happen. You folks are blocking the transition to a high fidelity, high sensitivity. Stop supporting dinasaurs, just let them die. Sadly my world class Thors will be going to the chop block sold as parts only. WORLD CLASS. No one has any interest. in the New Orleans area. What does that tell you. |
Equating an amplifier with tubes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The 12AT7 was a chinese clone of the Jadis 200 preamp, That is , the $$$$$ Jadis was only a nuance superior to the $900 chinese clone. Hardly a nuance. My Defy7 , will not be trumped by any future amplifer design. Amplifiers have no further breakthrough developments,. Whereas in speakers The breakthrough has happened and few have any real interest. They wish to remain stuck back in yesteryears 1970’s, 1960’s xoverpolluted, bad coughing speakers, The Wet Blanket sounding speakers. Some members here know exactly what i am talking about. I am predicting the future, some here just don’t want to see nor admit this progress in now taking place, here today. You don’t want to see nor recognize the new developments in speaker design, you are missing out on the most important developments in all audiophile cosmos. |
btw, the 8 wide band 94db just arrived, tested w/o cabinet vs the Diatone 91db w cabinet the 8 94db reduced the Diatone 6.5 91db to ~~Wet Blanket~~ status, Things are really starting to click now with this sensitivyty thing. The higher the sens the superior the imaging. So the Diatone 91 smashed the seas Thor 87 db to Wet Blanket status, The 8 94 db sens, smashed the diatone 6.5 91 db to Wet Blanket Status. Now what do you think a 10 98db goning to do to the 8 94db sens??? Anyone? Well I'll tell you what the 10 / 98db will do to the 8/ 94db, Going to smash it to Wet Blanket speaker. This is how this db sens game works. I'm guessing 98db is about as high as i figure i want to go in this deal. I'm quite surea Field Coil will blow away the 98 db 10, for sure. But at $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, Is it worth it? I have few recordings in my collection that would justify speading that kind of cash on a speaker. The 10/98 db will put my sound near the Mt Everest peaks. Had I not invested the $1800 in the Thor upgrade, I'd be there by now. |
position and shaped it into what it is, but it can also be a rigid stance that limits oneself from further exploration. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Stubborness is my middle name. I’m from the old early days of audiophile comos. xover low eff was The Speaker, nothing else existed. I am cking our FR as of a few months ago, Now that i have ACTUALLY listened to a high , well 91db Diatone, efficiency, now i can say xover low efficiency is not my cup of tea. I have completely shoved off the table the traditional xover designs. Also have shoved completely off the table Voxativ designs, as the US dealers are *Not Avaliable* for ordering. = AFAIC, Vox does not even exist. I’m going 10 inch wide band/compression horn and its a done deal. Last and final train ride on the speaker merry-go-round. Ricahrd Gray has shared a stoey of one client that had these 83 db speakers and made the ~~fateful~~ decision to adda SET Atmosphere 2.8 watt amp. Blew the SET’s like 2 or 3x’s. as the Atmos dealer told the buyer <<oh yeah sure our Atomos can drive the 83 db speaker, BY ALL MEANS**, after 3rd blow, the owner called Atmnos,,<<well what we mean, is not play too loud>> ^%^$#@#&*(^&%%%$% I’m going in the opposite direction,. Pairing a 100 pure watt per channel with a 97 db wide band. Massive waste of wattage, but it is what it will be. |
One other observation about these new *Full range* speakers, is that they are more about *midrange*. The low bass is a bit rolled off, the highs are definetly rolled off. Which to me is not a big issue. AS 90%+ of the fq's in my classical music falls in this critcal fq zone. I can esaily add bass and highs. So to sum the many discoveries made these past few months A) Speakers Most critical B) Sensitivity most critical C) Midrange most critical. Only via these 3 ingredients can true high fidelity enter into your system. All else is fluff, if not The Hype. |
WEll I agree, the OP is not very well expressed, just a jumble of ideas, more about opening questions, new thoughts /ideas. You will find the majority here agree, speakers is the vocal chords of the system. What I am learning over the past few weeks testing out different drivers and FR speakers, is this : speakers are indeed the critical component, and sensitivity is the critical spec that should be conisdered at the 1st. IMO, go directly to sens rating. We all want huge soundstage, details, very low coloration/distortion, etc etc. A speaker with average sens = 92db/below, might acheive some of these distinctive qualities, then again, might not. Whereas a higher sens, 94db+ might not only acheive these characteristics, but voice them in a way a lower sens speaker has no chance in the same degree. Lately the only spec i look at is sens. If the sens is 94 db, its up for consideration. Some of the lower grade FR small cone drivers I've been testing lately are rated 91db and perform as such = rejects. Also buyer beware, some FR/Ribbon/ etc drivers will show specs that might very well be *spiked*, Seriously consider subtracting 2db from many if not all the so called *FR* drivers comming out of china. China is pumping the sens rating, in order to gain more sales. \ No big surprise there. |
audition__audio849 posts05-24-2021 11:01amI dont think the OP had any motive other than some cathartic brain dump. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My topic has the most views here on audiogon as far as new threads. For a reason many here know i have some 40 years exp in audio, and trust some of the new developments/new discoveries I've made these past few months, experimenting with various speakers. If you don't have something of value to add to the open fair, honest discussion, best just to stay on the sidelines and learn something. |
box, that 7 inch SL driver has response down to 30-40 hz. Why give up this low end for a higher efficiency when amp power is so affordable these days?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well some of what i said above has tp be qualified, re-hashed in view of further considerations. Agree if you can find woofers, especially in the 7-8 inch range which deliver solid bass with clear low mids, (crossing say no higher thahn say 2k), here db level is not so important, My seas W19E001's with new Mundorf Supreme Silver caps, have increased the performance of the woofer. Seas has the W18E001 rated 87db. With the old Hovland caps, the bass was not as punchy. Not sure how to explain what the Mundorf caps a 10uf+ 2.2 uf have added to the W18's performance, but its superior bass vs the old cheapo Hovland 8.2 cap. Its really in the midrange and even more in the say,,,,12k+ fq's where sens really beccomes a critical issue. So far my testing of some cheap chinese *FR* drivers has given me some insight how the sensitivity rating becomes so important. Also the use of a Magnovox tweeter horn, guessing 96db sens, also has proven to be a superior speaker vs a say 90db/under dome tweeter. The Millennium 87db tweeter is old school. The wteeter i should have upgarded to was the Seas Exotic 94db sens tweeter for the same price. I just didn't know much about how this sensitivity comes into play. My guess, looking at the fq sens chart for the Exotic 8 woofer, the deeper bass fq's is just not there. The W18E001's , guessing, outperform the Exotic and the new Seas Graphene W18 no doubt outperforma sthe older Exel W18. Woofers rated lower than 90db is acceptable. Its in the midrange and highs where any driver under say 94db, will not perform on the same level as a 95+db *Full Range* speaker in mids. From what I've heard the lows/highs tend to be rolled off in *Full Range* drivers. Which concurs with my testing of cheap chinese *FR* drivers, the highs are rolled off, the lows are not as solid and punchy as the Seas W18. Bass can be had from any high quality higher end 7-8 inch SB Acoustics, Scan Speak, Seas. But these woofers are pricey. + Your xovers will be expensive. I am getting ever so closer to designing my *final* speaker, The Frankenstein. The W18's will remain as bass, The Voxativ Ac1A for mids/ upper bass, and either the Magnovox tweeter horn with a 2.2 Mundorf cap or a AMT Planar tweeter /just bought off ebay/ , arrives next week. Both in a shootout for ultra highs. 10k+fq. I have no idea the fq range on the Voxativ, so hard to say how The Frankenstein will evolve. So yes to answer your Q, the very 1st spec i look at/consider is the sensitivty rating. With 100 watt/channel amplifier I really don't need the 97db, but since its avaliable at same price as Vox's 91db speaker, may as well help myself to the added 6db sens. Dome tweeters with under 90db rating, just can not compete with high sens FR in the lower mids through high mids + low highs 10k/under Just can't. When you look at your dome tweeter in the speaker, its old technology due to lower sens rating. You are missing alot of the nuances in the music. The wet blanket treatment. |
but this is not gospel.
~~~~~~~~~~ This is what I am preaching, and no other doctrine/dogmas. Sens is the most critical spec when considering midrange/tweeter fq's. There I re-adjusted my thesis. Excluding woofers, as my W18E001's are 87db yet still remain one of the finest sounding bass speakers. AS we know FR has some issues with rolloff in the low bass region. Voxativ calims their FR drivers go into the 20hz zone, but from what i am hearing , added bass is needed. I have no idea how low the W18E001's go now, with the Mundorf Supreme caps, the bass reproduction on kettle drums in my classical music is rich, tight , just wonderful. Note the 20hz-30hz, not much in classical music in that fq range. Maybe jazz fans need the 20-30hz, but in classical its miniscule notes in this fq range. Dome tweeters in my experience can not match what a higher sens horn tweeter can do. The shootout always goes to the horn. The AMT planar tweeter arrives this week, rated 97db, We will see how this shootout goes. The higher sensitivity = the superior speaker. (excluding the massive compression horns which are not meant for high fidelity home stereo) |
Dual woofers = superior toa single woofer Based on what I just read on Troel's page, his CNO Grande has dual Seas Nextel Titanium voice coil woofers, Read just below the pics of his testing cds. Dual woofers havea combined cone area which moves more air, , making the bass seem deeper, punchier vs a single woofer. Thougha single woffer might go as low as 20hz, dual 7's even at 40 hz, have a more solid bass line. Which confirms what I am now hearing with the new Mundorf Supreme caps, a 10uf anda 2.2uf. My next plan , after the Vox AC1A , is to swap out the lower W18E001 with Seas newest W22, their Graphene cone with Titanium Voice Coil. = $1000/pair. Should bring the bass fq's down to the 20hz and really add a richness to the 100hz-1600hz. The Vox AC1A will have all the support in this fq range to make a truly FULL range, emotive sound stage. btw Troel 's web page is gold mine for understanding the many layers of fq ranges. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-GRANDE.htm |
You can take Jadis' JA800 mono blocks , thats 4 chassis at like 150+ pounds each, and pair these monsters witha say Wilson 85bd monster, and it will indeed sound likea wet blanket has been thrown over the speakers = the JA800 has been rendered down to garbage, with all its pure tube experience sucked bone dry by a low efficiency xover dinasaur speaker. AS larry says above, , massive power is not going to deliver super high fidelity, not when the speaker is below 90db efficiency. BIg power amps is not going to make magic happen if the speaker is sucking the life blood out the amperage. The only way you can acheive super high fidelity is via super high sensitivty speakers = aka the new Full Range speakers. (caveat, Vox does have quite a few 91db speakers, but we are talking a TRUE rating, not fudged, and its a clean nearly flat sensitivity across the entire fq spectrum,,, more important, extremely low distortion which offers 91db acceptable) Speakers rule, They are the Kings in your system, the amp/source serve the speaker as ministers. The speakers is The King. Most xover/low sens designs , please deduct 2db from the manufacturers spec claims. Your 87db is now a miserable 85db. = Good luck with that efficiency. |
of power, I would own such amps. But, I have personally not heard a high powered amp that I preferred over a good low-powered amp when driving efficient speakers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am aware low power, = the 845's, offer sme gorgeous mids/highs, ok in the bass. Thing is all my music is highly demanding complex full orchestra, = Debussy's La Mer. I have the hench the PP amps will deliver more **pizzah* Gutso, when crunch time comes. Besides I have huge investment in the upgrades in the Defy = can't part with it. So it will be Defy7 100 wopping watts paired with the Vox 97db. Certainly not a match made in heaven, they;'ll just have to learn to get along. |
. There are some very efficient full range drivers I would love to hear. I would not mind setting up a system around a Dynakit Stereo 70 for nostalgia reasons.
~~~~~~~~ QAudio shows should be back up this fall, or spring, Alfred Kainz at AEshoreports on youtube, has the AER and Vox on his YT channel. He sells both speakers. I have no issues ordering the newest Vox w/o demo, Its only $2k and have done my research. The Dynaco ST70 is one heck of a lil amp, Richard Gray has modified the ST90 calls it The Baby Gray which quite a few of his customers are very happy with it. It gives the Jadis Defy7 a good shootout. My point is The Crown Jewel in our systems in not the amplifier, The Speakers are the **main event*. I'm a high sensitivty speaker guy for midrange/highs, bass, the Seas Excel low sens line is doable. I will keep those in my system along with the Vox 97db for low mids- highs. W18E001's as added/boosted bass. Maybe the single Vox will deliver enough bass, can't say til they arive. So in bass, any woofer from top lines Seas, Scan, SB Acoustics, = acceptable, In mids./highs, only high sens (94db++) will work for me. Below 94db = reject. |
orpheus108,611 posts06-12-2021 6:40pm It seems that some of the best speakers, according to "Stereophile" cost in the vicinity of 20K. ~~~~~~~~ Many of us old timers here read Stereophile with a *grain of salt*, not saying all the product reviews are snakeoil, but surely read with extreme caution. I can imagine Stereophile pumping the idea *the more you spend on a speaker = the better it will sound*, Which obviously we all know now in 2021, its simple not true. I am very surprised Stereophile has not awakened to the concept, higher sens = superior speaker. I am far advanced ahead of that *gang* pumping some agenda to get folks to spend money. |
hubbman4 posts06-15-2021 9:51amAs someone who has been perpetually in the upgrade sickness.. I can tell you that no matter how great your components are, it’s all for not if you have crap speakers! the speakers deliver the truth! Therefore, the speakers are the key component, or the foundation for which all other components must pass through. ~~~~~~ Yep And this is the reason you never see me over on the amp/preamp room, Amplification bores me, there is not much to talk about. I can replace my Jadis Defy with just about any tube KT88 power amps/intergrated and come out close to same results. In my opinion Power = power. What I look for in amps, is quality of construction, that is No REpairs will ever be needed. Reputation is everything. In speakers , i made the new discovery that sensitivty is everything. We need to get back to basics. Not sure why Seas, Sacnspeak, SB Acoustics has not made the discovery of FR/High Sens as the superior speaker. Seas has 20 yo design called Exotic, its 20 yera old tech and thus wayyyy over priced vs the newer highs sens designs. If these 3 labs do not switch over going all FR designs all 3 will find themsleves bankrupt. Its just a matter of time. |
