perfectimage, perhaps i'm mistaken, but it's been my experience that sidewalls in close proximity to the speakers is what kills imaging, unless absorbent treatment is properly used, especially at the sounds' 1st-reflection point. i have found that most speakers image best when well-away from walls. |
no, perfect image, i beg to differ - speakers would image *best*, if there's *no* sidewall - i.e.: if they were outside. in my current set-up, my monitors are ~9' from the side-walls, & there is *no way* that i have imagining 9' beyond the outside walls! w/my ~25' wall, that would make the image ~43' wide!?! kinda rediculous, imho. *sometimes*, on *some* recordings, i get images that make for a soundstage ~18'-20' wide. this is about the best i'm gonna get (or even want, for that matter). if i were to put my current set-up into a narrower room, extensive sound absorption would be necessary on the side walls to get similar soundstage width. very few (if any) speakers will image even outside their own cabinets, let alone outside the side walls, if placed w/in 2'-3' of an untreated side-wall. |
perfectimage, ewe say: "The further from the wall the speaker gets the less defined the image gets...." this is precisely where i disagree, & think the exact opposite is true. in *my* experience, proximity to side walls, & to a lesser extent, back walls, is what ruins imaging in many speakers. the sound-absorbent wall treatments need to be at the 1st reflection points specifically to *remove* the wall. in my listening room, the speakers are ~5' from the rear walls, ~8' apart, & ~9' from the side walls. i sit ~10' from the speakers, with ~23' behind me to the rear wall. with my 25'-wide room, there's no way *any* speaker is gonna image outside the side walls, and i wouldn't even want an image that wide - it'd be way-too-unnatural. the *depth* of the soundstage, however, often *does* sound like it extends beyond the wall behind the speakers, tho. but, this is not unrealistic. regards, doug ps - david, sorry i'm not more specific - my measurements here are approximations. i *do* think it's best to keep as far away as possible fro the side-walls, tho, &/or use sound absorbtion at the 1st reflection point if they're anywhere near the speakers. monitors too far from the rear walls can lose lo-end reinforcement w/o subs, so there can be a soundstage-vs-bass compromise regarding how close/far to the rear wall ya wanna have the speakers... |
thanks for the tip, perfect image. regarding "convincing me", i guess the only way i could be convinced, would be to hear imaging improve as a speaker is moved closer to a side-wall! :>) 'til now, as previously said, i've found the opposite to be true. perhaps, i'm misunderstanding a bit, if you define *precise imaging* as something that comes at the expense of a wide soundstage. i've found this to be true when comparing different models of speakers - i.e.: some models seem to have a wide stage at the expense of specific image placement across the stage, while others' image specificity is more precise, w/the soundstage rarely extending past the edges of the speakers. (i'm searching for *both*!) but, even regarding these distinctions, i have found *both* to be improved the farther away a speaker gets from the side-wall. regards, doug |
hi perfectimage, i agree w/what y say above, especially: "All your observations are obvios traits of a great ear...." ;~) seriously, i tink your 1st paragraph sums it up pretty well, & also sums up why i 1st disagreed w/ya - i am fortunate enuff to have a large listening-room, where the 25'-long wall is the *short* wall. this allows placement for optimal *precise-image* placement, knowing that the soundstage width is only limited by quality of the software, speakers, & electronics - i will *never* be placing the speakers close enuff to the side-walls to adwersely affect soundstage width. your statement about moving speakers to get that optimum position - far enuff away from each other, yet not too close to the side walls, is typical of smaller listening spaces, & what i used to do before i moved to a house w/a large room a few years ago. i feel best results in a smaller room wood be to start with trying to optimize the distance between the speakers vs-listening distance, and then heavily treat the side-walls at the 1st-reflection-point. i believe that the room is by *far* the single-most important piece of equipment in an audio system. regards, doug |
soundstage *depth* is a whole 'nother issue - but basically similar tings are happening: ya wanna optimize the speaker placement w/the wall behind 'em, usually it's a compromise w/floor-standers & monitors on stands: further from the back-wall gives better image-depth (& worse saf), closer placement increases bass-response at the expense of image-depth (& saf improves!). ya also wanna sit far-away from the rear wall. of course, small rooms are aided w/strategic sound absorbtion & diffusionn when you or the speakers get closer to the walls than ya'd like. if ya got the space for it, subs can help in speaker placement for optimum sound, imho, cuz ewe can place the monitors for optimum-depth while placing the subs for optimum low-end response. i believe this can improve the *monitors*, even if they're full-range floorstanders - i had my thiel 3.5's set-up this way, before i got my present small merets, & they never sounded better - that 10" woofer was better higher up the frequency range when it dint have to go down to 20hz, and the marchand x-over is more transparent than the thiels' equalizer, that i was able to ditch. it's amazing how big speakers like thiels can disappear when out in the middle of a room! :>) for optimum image height, go for a carpeted floor between ewe & the speakers, nothing else between yew & the speakers, & as high a ceiling as possible, or sound treatment on the ceiling between ewe & the speakers. kinda extreme... :>) |
jadem6, i'm pretty much w/ewe on this, except, i'd say not *even* in a dead room, but *especially* in a dead room. quality speakers and electronics have the ability to transmit this info if it's on the recording, *if* the info isn't smeared by competing 1st-reflections of a room, which will confuse the ear-brain & ruin these subtle cues. thus, my opinion that *no* sidewall reflections is key to a wide soundstage. regards, doug |
perfectimage, while ewe may be right that *some* speaker mfr's try to recreate the pre-recorded soundstage by purposely using reflection-points, i think that the vast majority of speaker mfr's try to voice their speakers *without* using reflection points. i believe it was acoustic research that produced a speaker designed to use a rooms' sidewalls as reflectors (was the model called the magic?). it actually had a side-firing driver, angled, so as to bounce sound off the side-walls. but, i believe that designs such as these are in the minority - it wood be nearly impossible for a designer to try & determine yust *where* the reflection-point wood be in such a vast array of differing end-user room-possibilities. better to design for *no* reflection point, & if an end user *has* these unwanted reflection-points, due to small room, or other unknown variables, then that user can reduce its impact w/proper sound-treatment. yust my opinion, doug |
craig, i can't say exactly *why* yure getting this effect, specifically w/those components inwolwed, but it woodn't surprise me that ewe could get more total *depth* w/any of 'em in yer system, if ya then start playing w/the speaker locations/sound treatment. to me, these changes sound like a step in the right direction - even if ya dint like the immediate result of the increased forwardness, etc. playing w/the speaker positioning may wery vell get the soundstage back behind the speakers where ya like it, while *also* increasing the perception of depth further back past yer rear wall. yust a thought... regards, doug |
