No-brainer in my opinion. The Vandys are far superior being not only time and phase correct, but with a flat response below 20 Hz when properly set up. |
Semi: There is NO WAY that the Amati Homage is time coherent. Just because a manufacturer slants the baffle in no way assures that the speakers will be time coherent. In fact, in a Stereophile review of these speakers,
http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/139/
the step-response measurements clearly show that, although the tweeter and woofer are wired in positive polarity, the midrange driver is wired in inverse polarity relative to the tweeter and woofer.
Now go take a look at the same measurement FOR ANY THIEL.
Also, the bass peaks at 65Hz and then falls off at a rapid rate of 12dB per octave. That's not "first order" crossover, because if it were, then the bass driver would be falling off at a much shallower slope, due to its design needs to accomodate a first order design.
Sonus Faber attempts to replicate and pose as a Thiel, Meadowlark or Vandersteen, but ultimately fails from a design and electrical performance standpoint. And if the measured conditions are not met, then it will never be subjectively "correct" as a time coherent design, no matter how it "sounds."
And what you say about Thiels is absolutely false when it comes to phase coherence in a first order design. Just look at the benign phase angle vs. frequency response for Thiel designs. They blow SF out of the water on that parameter. I mean, give me a break.
Happy Listening (I've got my fire retardant suit on ;-) ) |
Ah, the comments of the ignorant and inexperienced. So sad... |
I must have touched a sensitive nerves with Semi and Natnic. That was not my intention. You guys must hate trips to the dentist.
The fact remains: Thiels, Vandersteens and Meadowlarks (and electrostatics) are time coherent, both in design and execution. Step response measurements prove this from both manufacturers and reviewers alike. And please don't discredit John Atkinson's measurment abilities. It's not subjective. The Sonus Fabers, as fine as they may sound to the ear (mine included..surprise!!!), are simply not time coherent. I wish they were.
Many of my musician and audiophile friends ans colleagues have often commented to me how much they enjoy listening to my system. Shame on me for choosing inferior and poorly designed audio equipment such as Thiel and Krell. Gosh, Jim Thiel and Dan D'Agostino should hang it all up tomorrow and retire in shame. Obviously I should have consulted the "experts" and "engineers" first. And shame on me for having stone cold deaf friends.
And I truly enjoy Semi's and Natnic's excellent use of the English language in this discourse. For instance, I particularly found enlightening, "Thin lean un involving, toe tapin and Thiels just dont happen." And, "We should be able to tell Stevecham's taste from his gears."
I guess there are more people out there who "know me" than I thought.
To Dbk: I think you will find greater listening satisfaction and value in the long run with a pair of Vandy 5As than with the SF Amati Homages simply because the sonic engineering and design of these speakers is superior to the SFs, despite the better cabinetry of the latter. Plus, when I auditioned both of these speakers in my search for a pair, I enjoyed the Vandy 5A more and would have purchased them but they were out my price range. (Shame on me for not having the $$,$$$ either afford them.) Subjectively, your ears may tell YOU otherwise. Perhaps Semi and Natnic can elighten us all with a valid comparison of these two models your thread originally questioned about. That is, if they can cool down long enough to write coherently. |
Take a look at Sonus Faber's website (www.sonusfaber.com). Tell me if I'm wrong, but there wasn't a single bit of useful product information I could find about their speakers. |
Semi you are completely incorrect on this topic. Yo umay goad me but it won't work. Audiogoners are well educated and know the difference between reality and BS, which is what you are fermenting.
The input signal used for step reponse analysis covers the entire bandwidth, not just a single frequency as you indicate. Obviously your degrees were obtained by mail order. Semiconductors; what do they have to do with analog waveforms? Bunch of ones and zeros, like your logic.
Thiel uses first order crossovers. You are wrong on this also. Anyone else wantto challenge this or do you still want to sit alone on that throne of nails.
I chose my system based on my ears, not on specs.
"An op-amp in 4 pole equation" has nothing to with this topic. No s$#t crossover with higher than 6 dB oer octave will cause phase shift. 4th order causes 369 degrees near the crossover point. So what?
No further comments from me; I answered Dbk's question.
I suspect you are a little kid with a desire for a nice system. Go out get a job and earn it like I did. And wipe your nose and zip up your fly. |
1) We can all get along; no more "fighting" about engineering from my end...
2) Actual listening to systems is the best way to evaluate ultimate inter-component compatibility...but
3) One CAN make sensible choices BEFORE listening to particular component combinations, e.g., whether a particular amplifier would be well suited for driving a speaker based on a couple of specs, or whether the output impedance of a particular preamp would be suited to the input impedance of an amp. My point being that, at the very least, some incompatibilities, based on electrical parameters, can be screened out ahead of time by such methods. |
Semi, who said above: "I suspected Stevecham was the same guy who worked in Music Lover Audio who bashed everything and discredited anything they didn't like."
"Stevecham is so sure the one data from Stereophile explains everything?"
I have absolutely no idea what you are saying. None of this even resembles reality or truth. There is good science, and there is bad science. You know nothing about me and this just vindicates my conclusion that you are a so-called "scientist" of the worst sort, making conclusions based on suspicions, not on reproducible, let alone verifiable, facts.
And by the way, Krell and Adcom don't measure the same. Some "engineer" you are. Grow up.
Get a life, loser. |
Specifically Ritteri? Like what? Do us all a favor and educate us with something besides suppositions.
If you can't provide specific examples then stay the heck out of it.
NONE of Adcom's products rates as doubling power in halved impedances, either by their own publication or by anyone's tests! And forget them working in class A, they are biased for class A/B at rated power. Big difference.
Put a 2 Ohm load on an Adcom and get out the weenies and marshmallows. (keep the fire extinguisher close by)
And why do you own Aragon if Adcom would suffice? Yeah, I thought so. Exactly!
I think the best thing about this thread is that it at least encourages all the whining trolls to emerge from their gulches and belch a few times into the wind before running back from whence they came. |
"if you actually knew anything about physics of amplifiers you would know that NO AMPLIFIER can truely double down their power when impedance is cut in half."
"Go back to www.Iamaspecwhorewannabe.com until you can validate a competant argument seriously."
The emperor has no clothes. |
Just found this by Mgs on another thread:
"For what it's worth, I believe Franco Serblin (sp), the designer of Sonus Faber speakers, uses a pair of Krell monoblocks as part of his test system at the factory."
You guys make me laugh. Thanks for the grins and happy listening to all ;-) |
SEMI:
I never once used the term "best". That is solely your assertion or invention Semi.
Serblin obviously (probably?) values Krell as ONE of many tools when evaluating his own designs. Most high quality speaker designers also use several amp manufacturers for the same reason, including Thiel, who uses Audio Research and conrad-johnson tube designs as well as Mark Levinson, Krell, Rowland, Pass and others for solid state.
I also know that Ferrari uses other tire brands (like Bridgestone in Formula 1, which truly is a winning combination) in their DESIGN of suspensions, brakes, aerodynamic adjustments, etc.
Most recording studios have at least three or more pairs of monitors of different brands specifically so that they can evaluate the mix/master under different conditions. Take note of Harbeths and small Yamahas also as widely used studio monitors. Many even set up a car speaker environment to ensure the final mix will succeed in automobiles.
And what does "best selling" speaker mean Semi? Number of units sold, or revenue generated, or margin vs cost per unit realized? There are number of ways of looking at this, just as there are evaluating and enjoying components.
You yourself said that single data points are not the way to evaluate something. I take no issue with that.
I'm certain that if I were to hear your Amatis I would be mighty impressed. If I had $20K to spend on speakers I would probably look at Sonus Faber and others (Thiel's most expensive speaker maxes out around $15K). You are very fortunate for being able to afford such speakers.
You wrote:
"Some people just don't get it. Guess idiot will always remain as idiot."
Fair enough, we've called each names now, so let's move on and be civil. And why do animated, spirited discussions always have be seen as "fights" these days?
I remain a student for life and try never to shut the door on keeping an open mind. If I'm an "idiot" for doing that, fine, let's stop the name calling, OK?
Is it possible to let the dust settle and perhaps turn this into an elightened discussion or will we continue to hurl the BS. If the former, then let's continue, otherwise, let's not.
I'll also bet that we have more in common than we don't.
Perhaps we could get back to Dbk's original question, which was a good one. |
I am still being called a Fool and a Jackass by Ritteri and Natnic. C'mon guys, lighten up will ya?
And thanks Lowrider for confirming Serblin's use of Krell to power his speakers, for whatever application.
Semi: Thanks for the kind response. Obviously you've done your homework when it comes to evaluating many different speaker manufacturers. I would be interested to hear more about how you settled on the Amatis after so many speakers in your life.
I used to own Dynaudio Contour 3.0 speakers when I was using Bryston 7BSTs but they simply didn't have the bass extension I sought. Plus, there were times when I heard some smearing and lack of depth of the midrange on certain recordings. Their highs didn't provide enough air and detail, all things I missed after living with them for awhile (a year). I simply missed my old pair of CS7s that I had traded in in order to downsize my living space. The Dyns were good but not quite what I wanted in the end; it took some time to realize this. I feel they would have been better in a smaller living room environment however.
By the way Ritteri, I am a diehard tube fanatic for all my guitar amps. IMO there is only one way to amplify electric guitar and that is with tubes. I have also recapped and restored many different silverface Fender amps from the 70s where the caps were leaking or the resistors had drifted way out of spec. Each time the amps came back to life with great dynamics and tight bottom end and chime throughout the albeit narrower frequency range of such designs. I wouldn't touch a blackface or tweed pre CBS Fender though, let someone else determine whether to potentially devalue from a collector's point of view vs a player's view.
I tried tube amps (cj and AR) with my Dynaudios and Thiels but I much preferred the "jump" factor provided by high current SS. The KCT and 400cx with CAST are synergistic to my ear and in my experience. If this combination EVER made my "ears bleed" it would out the door before you could say boo.
Powered by Parasound JC-1s, my friend's Vandy 5As provide plenty of jump and I don't hear the reticence mentioned earlier. Ray Brown's Soular Energy on SACD was very dynamic and vivid (Sony SACDP). Very lifelike and great dynamics.
I'm also a musician (guitarist/bassist/sometimes keyboardist who is used to playing frequently in low volume environments with live percussionists so I know what live music sounds like. Plus an occasional trip to SF and Boston Symphony Orchestras helps too. |
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Right on Ritteri. High current is certainly what's required for lower impedance designs. I was not aware that BAT can produce such current and I definitely investigate. I have only heard their components at Audio shows. Always a difficult environment in which to accurately evaluate systems.
Also, it seems like Manley may have some higher current tube designs as well. Comments welcomed.
Question: From Dbk's original question, which of the four pairs he asked about, SF Amati Homage, Vandy 5A, Wilson WP7 or Aerial 20T would be the easiest to drive from a current demand point of view? |
When venturing into the $$$ territory for speakers that you are Dbk, room optimization should and ultimately will become a significant investment in both time and money. My hunch is that as best we can evaluate speaker, amp, pre amd source combinations in store environments, we will always have the ability, given resources, to exceed the performance in-home, in terms of room treatment and component placement, simply because we have time. That simple facet of the listening experience, which helps average out our very plastic and flexible sensory/emotional/physical states can only occur over time and with repeated experiences. Trial end error in some cases, along with educated decisions about optmization of the listening environment, make for the best outcomes.
Note too that many B&M stores are now focusing on system installations and room treatments as the "added value" proposition for their own survival. I have almost no experience with room treament except for a bass buster in one corner. Did it help? I think so but there are some days and some recordings when I don't think it makes a difference.
I read the latest reviews in TAS about the B&O and Meridian speakers too. With Meridian my feeling is that the user is somewhat restricted to using their source components (not necessarily a bad thing, I enjoy my 508.24 and 504). The few times I have heard their systems it was with DVD-A sources and it was hard for a vinyl junkie like me to really get the whole sonic picture of what this system would sound like at home. I fear I would end up playing with menus more than I would just sit and enjoy music.
With the B&O, it's hard for me take them seriously suddenly because for so long they only made, IMO, systems that were primarily for the eye and not for the ear. So I'm sceptical about the TAS review.
You do have a point about how the "best" speakers may be influenced the least by room acoustics, but I hope we agree that in order to get the most from such designs requires dedication to optimizing that room acoustically. My cathedral ceilings don't help all aspects of my CS6s (snapping fingers reveals that horrid pinging noise bouncing off sprayed textured walls) and I look forward to being able to hear them when we downsize our living space this year.
I'll bet that in almost every case, given good choices between the rest of the components in a system, we all have the power and ability to make any system sound better than it ever did in the showroom. |
