Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

@fleschler

trust me fleschler, you know more about these matters than I do - everything sounding profound I posted earlier came from my reading of the article mahgister linked, with what I know of uncertainty principles, and my curiosity over why I often hear things with small changes in my system that cannot be measured. Confirmation bias is just a lazy inconclusive answer, and appears the only aspect of empiricism that pure rationalists acknowledge.

I still stand by where high fidelity began and what it means. So your post makes all the sense in the world.


When put into context, we are not hearing the single piece of equipment measured. We only hear it in the context of the entire signal chain - what comes out of the speaker and into your ears is the only true gauge of how well that bit of equipment performs….in context. By all means, measure that amp for linear distortion. But don’t pretend to measure it for the non linearities human ears might be hearing, where all the nuance music actually happens. It’s about system context, not about the amp or the this or that that are isolated things within an entire system. There is no easy way to get a full understanding of what something does in a system, until we hear it from the speakers with our non-linear ears.

In friendship - kevin

@kevn I see no such word games at all. I have been completely honest and my distilling down the discussion to the syllogism-like structure was an attempt to put you at ease since you like to write exceedingly long about issues like your distinction amongst fidelities and seemed ego-driven to dominate an animated and uncertain topic. You were also misunderstanding my points and I'm guessing I was some of yours.

My points were from the beginning exactly what ended up in the clarifying syllogism, though they may not have been sufficiently refined at that early stage. They were exceedingly relevant it turns out: there was no clear way to engineer a product to take advantage of the hypothesized phenomena; there was no established evidence that listening can exceed measurements for engineered audio products; there might be some additional insights in certain bodies of scientific literature but remains an undiscovered country; etc.

That's the gist: we don't know what is true until we discover it. We apply epistemic humility (sorry, I'm a champion of that phrase in this charged world). We sort through possibilities. I pretty much always operate in good faith and don't express certitude when it isn't warranted (attach your mildly uncomplimentary adjectives as you want...in good faith, I suspect you think! 🤣). I still say (a) might be untrue...the future is unknown.

In the end, though, here's what we have: Amir's measurements are currently effective for determining the relative quality of sound reproduction across a range of audio devices. The mysterious "deepenings" that were ginned up out of a few preliminary scientific findings didn't dethrone the value of ASR reviews. Those reviews continue to be high quality and valuable to me and to a large population of online readers. 

@markwd That's the gist: we don't know what is true until we discover it.”

- if you study it, you will find that discovery begins with empiricism, our experiences of life that begin with a hunch, not measurements, since one hasn’t a clue what to measure before it’s discovered. ; )

 

In friendship - kevin