Another workaround is object based audio and atmos music. I have a similar setup (9.2.7) and can confirm the experience they describe in this video:
Solving the "complex music problem"?
I have noticed that, regardless of the system, simple music (i.e. music with only a few sounds at the same time, such as a solo instrument) sounds way better than what I'll call here "complex music", meaning music like symphony that has a lot of instruments all playing different sounds at the same time. I'm assuming that this is an inherent problem for audio equipment. In a live symphony, you might have, say, 15 different unique instruments (i.e. counting all the violins as 1 unique instrument), each of which is vibrating in a different way; but in a speaker, each driver might be trying to reproduce 10 of those sounds at the same time. So each driver is a single physical object trying to vibrate in 10 different ways at the same time. The result is that the music sounds muddy, all the different parts blend together and you lose a lot of the detail.
I have a number of questions about this that I'm hoping all you experts can help me with.
1. Is there an established name or term for this issue?
2. Do you think my diagnosis of the problem above is correct? Or is something else going on?
3. Although this is always a problem, it's a much bigger problem on some systems than others. Are there some types of components, or some brands, that are particularly good (or bad) when it comes to this issue?
4. To what extent is this issue related to the components you have as compared to speaker placement and room acoustics?
5. To me, this is a huge issue. But I don't see it discussed all that often. Why do you think that is? Or, perhaps, it is being discussed all the time, but people are using a term I don't recognize? (hence question 1).
Full disclosure, I asked a related question under the heading "need amp recommendations for more separation of instruments" and got a lot of super helpful responses. I'm very grateful to everyone who took the time to respond there. That discussion was focused on a solution to my particular problem. Here I'm hoping to have a more general discussion of the issue. I know it's bad form to post the same question twice, but in my mind, this is a significantly different question. Thanks.
Showing 17 responses by kota1
You are correct, go to an audio show and the demos are primarily simple acoustic music. When you try to jam complex music into just two speakers you get compression. Then people run to get bigger speakers with more dynamic range. That is a workaround, fine. My solution has been to add more speakers in addition to more dynamic range. If you are familiar with Tomlinson Holman (THX) you might like this article:
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And hugely important, at least for me, is anything you can do to improve the apparent width and clarity of the stereo soundstage. This is why I posted that article re: Tomlinson Holman. His research shows that wide channels are more important than height channels. They need to be at 60 degree angles and then WOW, soundstage that is just amazing. You mention Carver, I bought the Sunfire Theater Grand 3 in 2002 which had side axis (wide) channels that were not just an extension of the left and right but using a matrixed wide channel to fill in the gap between the front and side surrounds. It worked great. |
The engineers mixing in atmos agree that two channels is very limiting and the atmos "palette" let’s them place the musical objects much more realistically. Yes, there are bad and good atmos mixes, just like everything else. I find the atmos renderer in the X-Box works well for music and movies mixed in 2, 5, or 7 channel. The Auro-3D, The Audyssey DSX, and DTS-Neo X (not dts-x) all work well for complex music as well as very dynamic music. If you want a GREAT Atmos mix get the Kraftwek 3D blueray or the new Harry Styles atmos mix you can stream.
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Room acoustics are key for ALL music, maybe even more important for simple music. Try listening to a solo piano in a reflective room, like cats fighting. Do you think a Norah Jones recording would sound better than the 1812 Overture (Lone Ranger theme) in a bad room? No. So, you get the room right. There is STILL a difference between simple and complex music in a good room that is a problem. I completely agree that the speakers have to be matched to the room to resolve the problem of complex music presentation. I agree with many of the work arounds presented like the big full range speakers @jayctoy uses, I also agree that quality electronics are important as the speakers can’t produce a signal they don’t get and it will sound mushed coming out. When I am listening to complex music I can send the stereo signal to my Sony Signature DAC which remasters the signal in DSD. My processor then upmixes the signal for my 9.2.7 speakers. I just listened to Bach’s Brandenburg Concerto streaming on Stingray Music through Plex tonight. Not a full scale orchestra but not a quartet either. It lifted me right into the hall they were playing in. Now, I sometimes will set my X-Box Series S to output in other formats. The other night it was Michael Buble with a HUGE big band recorded in Vegas streamed via Qwest TV on Plex. I set the X-Box to stream it in DTS 7.1 then upmixed it in my processor to 9.2.2. Fan f----tastic. The audience applause envelop you like you are there. The DTS renderer in the X-Box and the DTS-Neo-X upmixer in my Marantz processor layout notes and instruments in a way I have never heard in two channel with both dynamics and precision. For my taste in a complex music presentation wide channels are key, much more so than height channels. You get the idea. This is the youtube version of that video:
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I have never heard a system where I could hear every instrument in an orchestra, especially at louder volumes. I don't know of a one size fits all solution, even at a live performance you need good seats for that. That problem has been studied by Tomlinson Holman and they did a lot of research into great halls and acoustics. The first reflection points and the space above the performers are key and he developed a system of speaker placement to replicate that, check this out:
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The critical bandwidth in a 2 way speaker almost always contains the crossover point. Complex music can benefit from active speakers by: 1) Placing the crossover right before the amp giving the amp more control. In complex music with high level dynamics lack of control can smear the music:
In a passive crossover all that speaker wire is a choke point, do you think they get the best speaker wire or the cheapest for a crossover?
Many active speakers (including my own) are biamped or triamped with each amp chosen by the speaker designer for that particular driver. This makes the presentation exceptionally clear and articulate. You know how much clean articulate amps cost right? This is a budget friendly strategy to get a clear and articulate signal for the cost of that amp/speaker system:
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@subsystemtechnology , congrats on your first post and welcome to the forum. I agree with you 100%. When you have time could you post your system in your profile? Always interesting to compare. thx. |
@alexberger +1, a good amp can make mediocre speakers sound totally better, so you don't even recognize them. Great speakers with a cheesy amp is hopeless. |
I have been on a buying spree getting concert bluerays and dvd's at local thrift shops for peanuts as streamers are clearing out their closets. Live recordings in 5.1 dolby or DTS, played from physical media, not streamed, and upmixed into 9.2.2 surround blow away any type of traditional CD or stereo mix. It seems the recording and production for these live concert discs are excellent. Check out your local thrift stores and get them if you have a home theater for playback. |
