My feeling as well. I may have opinions about pin point imaging, but frankly it is nowhere near the top of my list of prioritizes when listening. Most of my listening is done outside the sweet spot. I focus more on tonal issues and rhythmic coherence. In fact, as fun as imaging can be when in the mood for ear candy, I find it can be a distraction from other things that are more important to me.
Solving the "complex music problem"?
I have noticed that, regardless of the system, simple music (i.e. music with only a few sounds at the same time, such as a solo instrument) sounds way better than what I'll call here "complex music", meaning music like symphony that has a lot of instruments all playing different sounds at the same time. I'm assuming that this is an inherent problem for audio equipment. In a live symphony, you might have, say, 15 different unique instruments (i.e. counting all the violins as 1 unique instrument), each of which is vibrating in a different way; but in a speaker, each driver might be trying to reproduce 10 of those sounds at the same time. So each driver is a single physical object trying to vibrate in 10 different ways at the same time. The result is that the music sounds muddy, all the different parts blend together and you lose a lot of the detail.
I have a number of questions about this that I'm hoping all you experts can help me with.
1. Is there an established name or term for this issue?
2. Do you think my diagnosis of the problem above is correct? Or is something else going on?
3. Although this is always a problem, it's a much bigger problem on some systems than others. Are there some types of components, or some brands, that are particularly good (or bad) when it comes to this issue?
4. To what extent is this issue related to the components you have as compared to speaker placement and room acoustics?
5. To me, this is a huge issue. But I don't see it discussed all that often. Why do you think that is? Or, perhaps, it is being discussed all the time, but people are using a term I don't recognize? (hence question 1).
Full disclosure, I asked a related question under the heading "need amp recommendations for more separation of instruments" and got a lot of super helpful responses. I'm very grateful to everyone who took the time to respond there. That discussion was focused on a solution to my particular problem. Here I'm hoping to have a more general discussion of the issue. I know it's bad form to post the same question twice, but in my mind, this is a significantly different question. Thanks.
Showing 5 responses by frogman
Big difference. You are listening to a great orchestral performance recorded in a great hall on a well balanced system. Think London Symphony in Kingsway Hall recorded by Kenneth Wilkinson for Decca. There is a passage in the score for solo piccolo. One hears within the soundstage a perfectly placed image of the piccolo with natural timbre and no placement waver. One can literally point to the image of the piccolo within the soundstage and say “There it is!”. Even as the piccolo ascends into its highest register natural tone is preserved with no high frequency splash making the piccolo sound the size of a tuba. Beautiful! “Actual” pin point imaging. Then there is another passage where the piccolo is playing a unison passage with clarinets and xylophone creating a unique, even odd textural blend. The piccolo sounds as it should, blended and as part of the instrumental “mix”. Much harder to isolate it within the soundstage. Play this recording back on a system with speakers (or, whatever) which have an accentuation (distortion) at say 2000-3000 Hertz. If the piccolo is playing in that range (not uncommon) the sound of that instrumental mix will lose the sense of blend and the sound of the piccolo will be accentuated as well. It becomes more isolated within the soundstage. “Illusion” of pin point imaging. “Perception?”, yes. “Reality?”, no way. |
Actually, to be more precise. The fault CAN be at playback, @thespeakerdude. Some gear accentuates (distorts) high frequency information which may give the illusion of more pin point imaging. Other gear (also) does a poor job of resolving very low level information which is where the sense of “blend” is manifested. That was my point: be careful in the pursuit of more separation and pin point imaging. It can be a rabbit hole and not have much to do with reality, |
That goes without saying. With a few variations, the seating of musicians in an orchestra is fairly standard and that is what recording engineers have to work with. As far as the hall goes, good conductors, musicians and hopefully the recording engineers themselves have to understand a hall’s tendencies and make the appropriate adjustments. More times than not, IMO, fault (if it’s there) can be placed on the engineers and the overly aggressive or faulty use of spot or close micing. |
As always with discussions such as this, it’s difficult to know exactly what the poster is trying to convey. “Less”, “more”, “not enough”, “too much” are usually relative characterizations based on personal taste and sonic goals for one’s system. Not meaning to dismiss the possibility that there may be a real deficiency in the OP’s system, one listener’s pin point imaging can be another listener’s, as @viridian points out, a sonic “parlor trick”. In the case of Classical orchestral music I think it’s important to remember a couple of things. While we may find thrilling the kind of pin point imaging of individual instruments in an orchestra that the OP feels is lacking in his system and that some systems seem to provide, this is not what is typically heard in even the best concert halls. Sure, sitting front row center is as close to the often mentioned “conductor’s perspective” as the listener can get. However, keep in mind that the “conductor’s perspective” is not what the composer him/her self intended for the listener (live or at home) to fully convey the musical message. Composers (and good conductors) understand and exploit the fact that instrumental sounds blend in specific ways and they compose and choose instrumental combinations accordingly. For example, a melodic line may be composed and assigned to be played by a cello and a bass clarinet in unison because of the specific way that those two instruments blend and create a particular texture. If the recording and/or its playback separates those two instruments with the coveted pin point imaging then one doesn’t hear the desired sonic texture and the musical intent is diminished. There are many similar examples in a complex orchestral work. @ghdprentice ”Among the many reasons great classical composers remain popular is the skill they exhibit at all levels of using an orchestra to create incredible sonic experiences.” Exactly! IOW, as concerns the topic of the thread, be careful what you wish for. |