Solid state; when would you use tubes?

If you can, go out and visit some local audio junkies who have various types
of systems, or nearby dealers where you can listen, and see if you can get a
sense of what YOU might like. Bring your own music to listen to. As you may
already have gleaned from similar threads, the two camps can be myopic as
any radical fundamentalist sect. You can find plenty of folks who'll steer you
in either direction, and the question as to which is "best" is as
pointless as asking whether vanilla or chocolate is the best flavor. I know,
that's not the question you've asked, but since the initial late-night tome
seems to be addressing that issue in some ways I thought I'd publish a
counterpoint, though I'll keep mine brief. As far as where to start, I'd try
listening to other systems first and see if you like the differences you hear. If
you do want to jump headfirst into the fray, my experience has been similar
to Newbee with tubes, which is to say the preamp seemed to make most
difference, in general, though if you move into the realms of SET or OTL I'd
say that the amp then plays a stronger roll in changing the sound (not to
diminish the importance of a good pre), and...per your Tubes 101 textbook
above, going that direction is more limiting in your choices of speakers and
more sensitive to system matching at the back end. I've also found, as many
have, that the different types of music are best served by different types of
systems. You may be swayed one way or the other by how the music you
prefer to listen to most of the time sounds on each type of system. There's
heaps of input on these subjects in the archives too.

There'll be a pop quiz on all of this material on Tuesday afternoon so you'd
better start cramming! Good luck.

Marco

Just a quick addendum on the absurd notion of letting the more limited selections of speakers dictate the type of system you choose: I would no more let the fact that there are only a few types of performance tires available for my large dual-sport motorcycle deter me from my strong preference for that particular bike, as I would let limited speaker selection determine what type of audio system I choose. The fact is the tires made for my bike work extraordinarily well since they are designed specifically for it and the applications it is used for, as many of the speakers (and there are many) designed for low-powered amplification do work superbly well in that application since they are often designed specifically with that in mind. Now if you happen to be in the crowd that insists that they have speakers that resemble public trash receptacles available among their selection, or those that look like toy soldiers beating drums, or need to know that you can make your own personal contribution to raping the rain forests of some specific exotic veneer so your friends can look on and nod in knowing admiration, well then I guess you don't need to go there, and I'd suggest vacationing and Fernando's Hideaway. But if you don't necessarily need your listening room to look like a state park picnic ground, or March of the Wooden Soldiers, or complement the burl wood on your Lamborghini’s dashboard, then do remain open to the world of various forms of low-powered amplification.

Marco

Hey Jax2 - you riding a Multistrada? Or a GS? I'm thinking about buying the Multi.

Biomimetic - I ride an R1150GS. I ride off the pavement enough that the advantages are significant over the Duck, not to mention I enjoy servicing my own bike and, in a good year will put 10-12K miles on my bike. I've had two friends who've owned Multi-Strada's. Both said they are a blast on the street but are really not as competent off the tarmac, and are lacking in long-distance comfort (another aspect of riding I enjoy). One of those friends also owns an R1150GS and wouldn't think of substituting one for the other. If he had to own one bike it would be the GS. The other, who is primarily a street rider, ended up selling his after owning it only a few months. YMMV. They sure look and sound great. Regardless, they are different animals. The MS is more of an urban asault vehicle. Cast wheels, fancy cateye headlights and lower ground clearence will not hold up well to the punishment of dirt roads...IMO. The GS is more of an all-purpose, Swiss Army Knife of bikes. Mind you it is not a trail-bike, but it does pretty darn well on challenging terrain depending on your skill level. If you are doing mostly off-road, then I'd look to a lighter bike that is more suited to that purpose. This is my second GS (my first was an R1100GS). The R12GS Adventurer looks like a nice choice. Rode and R12GS and couldn't find enough advantages to trade-in, and don't like the linked braking system (I think the Adventurer is available without it).

On your audio-related question - To add tubes to a high-end integrated (or any integrated, for that matter), you'd need to have an input that bypasses the preamp section to use a separate tube preamp, or a line-out that bypassed the amp to use an external tube amp. I wonder if there are any integrateds that have sections worthy of such isolation, as there usually is some compromise in squeezing both in one box. On the other hand, there are many nice tube as well as hybrid integrated amps out there to choose from.

Marco

Any thoughts on how to make an integrated system more "musical" to use a crappy audiophile word?

I think you'll probably need to get more specific with your question (which integrated amp are you using? what is the rest of the system? what is it you're missing from it now, or what have you heard that you are striving for?). I have a Portal Panache SS integrated and find it very satisfying and engaging. Clear, fast, great imaging, and lots of other audiophile adjectives to heap further praise if you like. It works very well and I enjoy it very much. Overall, on most of the music I like to listen to (acoustic, vocals, folk, alt-country, jazz, small-scale classical) I prefer my SET rig, but the Panache is probably more versatile overall in that it can master more complex, fast, and layered music better, as well as doing quite well with the other stuff. With my personal preferences in music, if I had to choose one I'd take the SET without any hesitation. That is a personal choice and, as I said earlier, I'd suggest you try to listen to as many different options as you can with your own musical preferences and make your own choices.

California, more specifically Northern CA, is my favorite place to ride! Those big dualies rule in the mountains and canyons around there. Another one you should seriously consider is the newer KTM Adventurer, which could be equally as versatile as the GS. I think you may have misunderstood me; I never said anything about the "Airhead Oilhead thing" to agree with. I've never owned an Airhead GS. The airhead is a great bike for it's time, and overall, but it lacks power on the pavement, and leaves much to be desired as far as suspension and brakes are concerned. It is a dated bike and there are better choices IMO though it suits many just perfectly - THAT definitely IS a hot debate in the big dual-sport world. If I were moving in that direction I'd sooner get a more dirt oriented bike. The Multi vs. GS debate (if there is one?) really isn't as similar as you may think to tubes vs. SS: Those two bikes do not serve the same purpose...there is little to debate where that is concerned IMO. The MS takes styling cues from the big dual-sport bikes, but the resemblence is only skin-deep. It doesn't have the tires, wheels, nor ground clearance to make it much good off pavement. Those specs are not debatable, they are simply black and white facts, if you will. Although SS and tube amps are different, though both serve to amplify music, I think the lines drawn in the sand are not as clear in terms of looking at the specs on paper, because, in the case of audio gear, the black and white does not tell the whole story. Both technologies are capable of reproducing music quite well. Each has inherent distortions and idiosyncracies to varying degrees. But some of the "distoritions" actually make the music more pleasing to some folks (in spite of the fact that they look "bad" on paper).

You are quite right that ABS does not mix with riding on dirt. As a rule I turn it off whenever I ride off road (as would any GS rider with any sense). Doing otherwise could be dangerous. All the Oilhead GS's allow you to turn off the ABS option, and will indicate on the dash when it is turned off, as well as when it is operating properly. The brake feature I was referring to was not ABS, but Linked Brake Systems where the front and rear brake controls are linked by computer and using either one will engage both in a programmed ratio. Also not good for dirt as you often want to use the rear brake independently to slide the rear end, and for slow-speed control.

Marco

Jax2

If you are ever riding in the SF Bay area of Northern California, look me up and come have a listen to my SET rig. I wouldn't trade it for anything

I just took a look at your system page, Doc: WOW! I'm already packing a large suitcase which I'll send ahead with my wife and dog. I'll be taking the back roads so I should be down there in a few days. You don't mind if we all stay a while and enjoy your system do you?! Nicely done.

You live in a beautiful area, but, seriously, I don't think I'll make it down anytime soon. I used to make a point of riding and camping around the northern areas around Yreaka and Willow Creek (Klammath River Highway), at least once a year, but it's been harder to make time these past few years. Did Howard (Boa2) come listen to your sysem? He sold me my first GS motorcycle back in 1996. Next time I'm down there you may just hear from me! Thanks for sharing your system here on Audiogon.

Marco