solid state vs tubes

Wow! this thread will go on for ever because it is a subjective discussion/argument. Lets take away the tube and solid state fan boys that won't ever accept that the other can be as good or better. Some people are in a particular corner because that is what they believe period. People vote republican or democrate many times, not because the candidate is better than the other, but because they refuse to vote any other way. same is true for tube vs solid state arguments most times. Good Engineering is good engineering. If it is designed and constructed correctly, it will reproduce the electronic signal as it was designed to. Remember those words. as it was designed to. Does the engineer seek to reproduce the signal as accurately as possible or do they seek a particular sound? Many times it is the sound, not signal accuracy, and people develop a personal taste for what they like and totally throw out accuracy. I have compared top of the line tube equipment (apples to apples) with top of the line solid state and as with any piece of equipment designed by different people, there will be differences in sound output. But, I can say as an engineer and as a music lover that they both (excellent top of the line tube and solid state) sound wonderful and I would take either. As I have written many times, take your favorite well recorded music, sit in a room, listen to your music on a tubed amplifier, then remove that one and plug in a solid state amplifier and listen again. compare apples to apples. A $5000 tube amp with a $5000 solid state amp (just make sure they are in similar price and quality range). Designers have compromise points based on the budget and price range of products. That is why price, and quality ranges are so important in comparisons. You can't reasonably take a Audio Research REF 610 amp and compare it with a Yamaha $700 amp and think they would be even close. Don't play with cables or any other item. Just amp to amp and see (listen). It will come down to your personal preference. Don't allow your thinking to be biased by other's ideas or preferences. Listen for yourself. You will find that a good engineer/designer can do tube and solid state equally well. Do you honestly think that Nelson Pass can't design and build a top of the line tube amp? Same with Tube designers doing solid state. Listen to the music. Love the music. Does it sound real? If not, why? First is probably that it was recorded badly. Which is the case most times. Just a bad recording and certain equipment is very forgiving and will not reveal the inaccuracies. Or they are designed for a particular sound. Other equipment will reproduce the signal as it was recorded and will reveal terrible sound. But, it may not be the equipment, but the recording. There are many things going on, not just one thing. Talk to knowledgable friends, listen to equipment and music and have fun. Borrow equipment from people and stores and listen.

Thanks for the correction Mrtennis; However, what I was trying to say (among other things) is that unless the designer/engineer used the same specs, layout, parts, construction, wiring, grounding, etc. in designing the amps, it won't matter if they are solid state or tube, they will absolutely never sound the same. Apples to apples. Two different 50 WPC tube amps will never sound the same unless they are the same amps. Same for solid state equipment. You will always detect a difference in sound from different equipment, even if they have the same specs. The transfer functions (don't ask) of each piece of equipment are totally differnt. That means that gain, phase, etc. are different based on the design and circuitry. That is what some designers tried to do in the past. Copy transfer function responses of high end equipment in the designs of their own. So, if we are talking about amps, and not pre-amps. First, what speakers are we considering? What is their impedance characteristics over frequency and power? Knowing that, what amps can handle that? If the speakers loads are very difficult, then only a few amps can handle them correctly without oscillating or blowing up. It totally depends on what the engineers intended in the design of the amps. Input impedance, sensitivity, gain, output impedance, load handling characteristics, power, voltage, phase, price, efficiency, etc. All of these must be taken into consideration in the design and as I mentioned earlier, depending on the price point, compromises must be made. So, the short answer is no. No tube amp will sound like a particular solid state amp or visa versa. Even two tube amps don't sound the same. It will ultimately come down to what type of sound you want. Real, altered, bright, fast, etc. This is why the used market is so great. There will always be the next greatest and better piece of equipment coming and someone will absolutely have to have it and will sell their other equipment to make room. I know a person that sold their Mark Levinson 20.6s because he doesn't have room for his top of the line Boulder amps and his Audio Research 610s. So, even though the 20.6's are better still than just about anything out their, they had to go and if I had the inclination, I would grab them. Solid state or not. That is not to say that their aren't any tube amps that are just as good or better, but you are now in the upper ranges of high end. you want great sound? take a listen to be top of the line Boulder amp/pre-amp. I haven't heard a tube set up better. Close or just as good? maybe, but better? I don't know. enjoy the music. Enjoy the race.

The discussion here is equally facinating and confounding. Because the arguments are great. But, lets remember that original post was about whether in direct comparison between tube and solid state amps the difference was non discernable. Atmasphere as usual presents a well thought out technical discussion regarding the benefits of tube amplification and some drawbacks for solid state. As I pointed out, with well engineered/designed tube or solid state amps, I'll take either because a correct well engineered design is just that, regardless of whether it is tube or solid state. Most of the arguments (not all) against solid state really stems from the mass produced stuff produced in the 70s and 80s. It wasn't really terrible, it was just not really good enough for serious listening, but background music. I have several systems in my home that are used specifically for background music when I'm not doing serious listening. However, Bob Carver was correct in that if you give a good engineer enough time and money, they can make an amp sound like the best made. Just copy the transfer function of the best. But, solid state distortions vs tube distortions, come down to how hard the engineer wants to work to eliminate the worst kind of distortion and leave only distortions that aren't bad. Both in tube or solid state. Nelson Pass has an excellent article on his DIY Pass Labs site about this very topic. Wonderful reading. Compromises abound in this industry. How much time and money does the engineer have to work with? If unlimited, you will have a solid state amp that no tube amp can touch and the same can be said for a tube amp. I have heard some not so great tube amps and some not so great solid state amps. I have also heard some wonderful tube amps and some wonderful solid state amps. sooner or later I'm going to hear some Atmasphere tube amps and I bet they are absolutely great and I would be faced with the decision to go broke again for a short time or not. But, even when I'm sitting worrying about how much money I just spent, I ultimately end up smiling when I realize that the music is absolutely wonderful and life is good. First thing first. I know good music when I hear it and I can tell a bad recording or simply bad music when I hear it. I played classical violin (first chair), oboe, sax, and many other instruments. I know Jazz, R&B, rock, classical, etc. I know live unamplified music and have heard very good amplified music. So, I know what a real symbol sounds like. So, my point is when you sit in front of that special system and listen to music, does the singer come out on stage? can you see the stage? where is the piano?, drummer, etc? can you see it? how deep is the stage? If you can't see this, then 1) either something is wrong with your system, 2) something is wrong with the recording or a combination of both. but, you absolutely should know that something is wrong. I am a advocate of making friends with a very good stereo equipment shop and on occasion go in and listen to their best system (that you know is good) and reacquant yourself with what a great system should sound like, so you will know what is wrong with yours and work slowly in fixing (a piece at a time) yours. It takes years, unless you have a lot of money now. Enjoy the music. Life is short. Equipment come and go and does slowly improve over time. But, don't marry the equipment, marry the music. I really enjoy reading your threads.

enjoy