Amplifier Requirements This speaker is designed for operation with a standard Quad II amplifier and it is essential for both proper performance and reliability that it be used only with this amplifier or one designed specifically for the Quad loudspeaker. Speaker Specs https://mniec.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/quad-esl57-user-manual-page0010.jpgThe above information has been taken from the Quad owners manual. Also it is my opinion, based on current personal experience, that anyone needing to add external tweeters to this speaker is doing so because of one or more of the following factors, which could be affecting the setup and causing problems. This assumes no hearing issues. - Physical condition of the speakers themselves. (are they functioning at 70% ) - Room size and positioning - Room Dampening - Humidity levels - very dry or humid. Especially if speakers are not kept "on" plugged in. - Amplifier compatibility ***************************************** For information here is the Quad II amp http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/product-detail.php?pid=20***************************************** Hi Ajant - how did your audition go ? I never heard back. Cheers |
His reply seemed a bit vague, though he did say “the Quad wouldn’t hurt it” the J2. Hi Ajant that comment implies to me that he hasn't actually heard the J2 with the Quads? Let me know how it goes. I stand by my thoughts that one can insert whatever amp/s you want in and try them - but this speaker is unique and therefore you should either buy the intended amp from Quad, or one that was built specifically for them, like Roger Modjeski's RM10. The only one I am familiar with. What reinforces this for me is that I have had amps that have worked well with my Acoustat and B&W Electrostatic Speakers - but did not work with the 57. If you have to add an external tweeter to the 57, the amp in my books, isn't doing the job, or there is a problem with the speaker. The only amp I have personally owned that worked well with the 57, and also my Acoustat and B&W Electrostats, was my Music Reference RM9. And this is what put me into research mode, and on the path where I ended up with the RM10 years ago. Also - The heat from the RM10 amp is not that bad and imo any SS Amp Class A needed will also get hot. Cheers |
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The Quad 57's are an anomaly. Both physically and electronically.
Electronically and on the subject of this thread - I am not familiar with any SS amplifier design, that is able to concentrate its energies for bass, which sucks up the most power - at 30 ohms+, which the 57's need. And why should they be designed this way if the Quad 57's are an anomaly? There are no business reasons that I can see for a manufacturer to build an amp this way.
@Atmasphere, (other amp manufacturers)
if you are still following this thread - does such a SS Amp beast exist, and or can a SS amp be built that is like the Quad II, ......I mean if someone really wanted to ?
I believe.... and its theory only, because I am not an EE, but, I think that SS amps get smoked and dizzy, start oscillating (what's the technical word I am looking for?) by the 30+ ohms bass requirement. Many Class A seem to be designed from 8 ohms, to double down in watts and half up in watts. If designed for the Quad 57, from 8 ohms they should be doubling up to allow the amp to cruise and not be taxed.
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Thanks Atmasphere points noted and helpful IOW, its impedance curve is not an efficiency curve like it is with many box speakers!! I can’t emphasize that enough- ESLs are fundamentally different in this regard.
The only amps I know of that can produce anything like a constant power characteristic are all tube amps. However, if you **do** use solid state, its quite evident that loop feedback should not be used in the amp’s design.
What they **do** confirm is that Quads can play bass quite nicely if you have the right amp on them! For the bass they play its very good. If the music one listens to is satisfied by this ....great. However most I know have left the 57’s due to the bottom octave missing and lack of HF’s. The lack of HF’s being from what I mentioned earlier. But this thread is 8 years old :^) Jan 2017 - For speakers which are not full range, implying bottom octave missing or bottom couple octaves much lower in db on full range music; subs today take care of it very nicely and integrate well. But they do need to be setup well. Kalali
So by extension, this begs the question that every ESL speaker manufacturer should either develop and sell a matching amplifier or almost all ESL speaker owners out there will not be able to take full potential of their investments. Kalali Well Quad do and Acoustat used to as well. IMO, anyone looking to buy really "any" expensive speaker should be calling the company direct and asking them what amps are in their test labs. Likewise if buying amps - find out what speakers they are using. I have been making these calls in past. |
Hi whart - congrats on getting them set up. Would be interested in seeing a pic of the room so I can understand what is happening. I would be willing to go back into audiophile mode if I had the Quad II amps to compare with my Music Reference Rm10. :^) My 57 room can be seen on my AudioGon virtual system - last pic bottom right. I guess that means I'm not playing Black Sabbath at full tilt, but life is full of compromises. :) Come on over and bring your lps. :^) They will seduce and hook you with single instruments and female voices which sound like they are at the Microphone. They make the Acoustat sound colored. and veiled. Running them as a vintage second system with selected music is no problem and with many electronics. The issue comes ....and this day comes for everyone that listens to full range dynamic music .....you want to hear them compete with their main rig.. And this is where everyone discovers it is not plug and play. I think how much success one will have is based solely on how stubborn a personality one is, for making something work and.....is the individual the type to keep good gear and tweak. Or are they a frequent flyer, buying , selling, trading gear like stocks. If the later - the Quad 57 is not for you. It is very difficult to buy, sell, trade your listening space. Oregonpapa (Frank)- I ran the Quad SS preamp/amps for a time. The amp was the bigger 405 that you needed to insert limiters in so you didn't fry the speakers. They are good candidates IMO and work well for a second vintage system and on some material. The preamp very quirky. Cheers Chris |
Interview with Peter Walker
Interviewer
"How do you rate the merits of listening tests to instrument tests? "
Peter Walker
"We designed our valve (tube) amplifier, manufactured it, and put it on the
market, and never actually listened to it. In fact, the same applies to the 303 and the 405. People say, "Well that's disgusting, you ought to have listened to it."
However, we do a certain amount of listening tests, but they are for specific
things. We listen to the differential distortion - does a certain thing matter?
You've got to have a listening test to sort out whether it matters. You've got to do tests to sort out whether rumble is likely to overload pickup inputs, or whether very high frequency stuff coming out of the pickup due to record scratch is going to disturb the control unit. But we aren't sitting down listening to Beethoven's Fifth and saying, "That amplifier sounds better, let's change a resistor or two. Oh yes, that's now better still." We never sit down and listen to a music record through an amplifier in the design stage. We listen to funny noises, funny distortions, and see whether these things are going to matter, to get a subjective assessment. But we don't actually listen to program material at all. "
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Right on Whart. Kent is a good guy over at EStat Solutions. I ordered EHT boards from him years ago. Can’t stress enough the importance of the subs here in the overall solution and fwiw, how "estatic" (sic) I am with the ones I chose. I found them in a recording studio - they were new in the box with full warranty. The Studio was using three and these were spares and for sale. Without naming brands, I will just say that when you have Phase, DB, Crossover FQ, plus more, all controlled with a small credit card sized remote control from your listening position. http://pdfasset.owneriq.net/7/59/759489fe-7a1b-4d1c-9604-af448eda70e6/759489fe-7a1b-4d1c-9604-af448e...Its hard to go back to a conventional sub with controls only on the box. You will never have to get up and go to your subs for adjustments. Make adjustments as you listen. Look forward to hearing about your adventure. Cheers Chris |
^^^^^^^^
Hi Eric (Bdp24)
In followup to your post,
U know..... I keep changing music genres lately, more than usual. There really seems to be no rhyme or reason to it all. I can't explain it. I think it is due to stresses from the past holiday period.
Probably the best feature of that Sub remote I mentioned in my last post, are the buttons along the bottom - 4 of them..... presets..... which can be selected for "four" personalized customized settings; One can set them if they choose, for different musical genres like Classical, Jazz, Classic Rock, Reggae, etc.... with varying amounts of DB, even different X over point for each, depending on how badly the music is compressed.
Right now I have my four buttons set up for.
1) Classical 2) Classic Rock 3) Folk and 4) Adele
The 4th category nicknamed such due to requests from my wife and her friends over the holidays. Should probably change it back to Jazz. Last two weeks in Dec can be a very stressful music period.
Cheers Chris
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Kalali
Those of us who can’t afford the "perfect" speakers, resort to multiple room/system set ups for listening to different types of music. It might be a wash at the end cost-wise but it offers the opportunity to buy more toys to play with. My multiple rooms are due to the audiophile disease, curiosity. and have nothing to do with finding the perfect speaker as it does not exist. If I frequent a room long enough, a system kit, ends up in there. With different technologies, just to make it more interesting. Its a virus thing. Audiophiles seek change and are never happy with status quo....full stop. Whether you keep making changes to just one room, or multiple rooms, is irrelevant. Some, with multiple rooms available, are just better at multi tasking than others :^) At the height of glory, I think I had 5 rooms going. Not sure ask my wife. I am currently being contained to two adjacent rooms in the full basement of our home. Audio friends tell me I am lucky, but I feel like I can break out into a room upstairs where the Modded Acoustat Model 3’s are hiding at any time. |
I am curious this morning and questioning this ML_2 that has been mentioned. There are two outputs coming out of my preamp. One goes to the RM10 which is run full out to the Quads. The second preamp line out goes to the Subs which are set to cutoff at 60 hz. I am trying to understand how the ML_2 mono pair, not having heard them, and just based on specs.....can get the job done. if I was using them I think I would need to use a higher cutoff on the subs? ************************************ From nyame’s post ML_2 Mono - Pair 25, 50,100 watts into 8, 4, and 2 ohms this implies to me and please tell me if I am wrong. 2..............4.............8............16..............32 OHMS 100..........50...........25..........12.5...........6.25 ML_2.....Output Watts. ***So only 6.25 watts available at 32 ohms***. The Quad 57 use approx 32 ohms to make 100 hz. See the graph that was posted earlier and here it is again. http://www.quadesl.com/graphics/quadGraphics/quad_impedance_graph.jpgSomebody explain this one to me please. *********************************************** Whart - would have loved to have met Peter Walker in person. Also John Bowers. Cheers Chris |
Hi nyame
yeah,
I get the fact that the Quad 57 presents a capacitive load. Atmasphere also made this clear earlier. Also I do remember now, similar discussions with the OTL manufacturer who made the 200 wpc OTL amps I was using with my Acoustats.
btw - do your amps have a brand name ?
So I have a recommendation to unravel this Quad 57 mystery.
Nyame - you may send me your ML_2's.
Kalali - you may purchase those Quad II's you linked earlier, and send to me also.
or alternatively Whart; can send me his Quad II's while his Quad's are being restored.
I promise to complete the shoot out with my RM10, post results here, and all equipment returned by April 1, or when boating season opens; whichever comes first. :^)
How's that sound ? My LP assimilation project can wait . 8^0
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Bdp24 (Eric) Is it my correct understanding that Roger will only build RM9's now upon request, due to the cost ........or is this a myth too ?
Cheers |
nyame
But this is the first time I have heard of stacking 3 pairs of Quads. Why stop there ? https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/72/13/36/7213361b9e13336a168f4c0d98008eb3.jpgThe funny thing is that when I had my Quads I was never aware, while listening to music, of any deficiency in the bass or treble. It was only when my brain kept telling me the bass did not go low enough and that the high frequencies were rolled off. My rooms are adjacent to one another. I can have the same music material running at the same time for fun. There are matrix 800’s in the adjacent room. I can tell you and so can others that there is no roll off in the HF’s with the RM10 and 100% functional Quads. The room treatments between the two rooms is also very different. Now the bass. ****************************************** Interview with Peter Walker Interviewer : For people who would like to use your speakers as mid-range and high-end reproducers - do you make suggestions about what they might add for moving- coil supplement below 100Hz, say?
PW: We try to keep out of it. Two or three people have made good attempts at this, adding woofers. It’s not that easy to do. Initially it’s quite impressive, but to try to give this a homogenous sound is difficult. Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other. This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else. It gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That’s all right. Adding woofers has never been very good. ***************************************** So it gives you 6 db more in the low end, and 3 db everywhere else. So it is not linear, and they still don’t play any lower than 45 hz . Peter Walker never heard today’s subwoofers. I had one occasion to hear stacked quads. Whether the setup or one of the panels was off a little, the magic I hear with two was lost. Seemed like a lot of effort and risk (multiple panels) _ to me at the time and the reason I pursued the sub route for db levels in the larger room. The secret for me in my space - to have the single pair panels elevated so they are 44 inches off the ground at the mid panel point. . ****************************************** @Kalali there is no such thing as a good deal with Quads. I would never buy any without seeing. and hearing them, along with the paperwork for when they were restored. Also removing the back panel to determine if they were a smoker. Would you buy a car that was owned by a smoker ? Cheers |
kalali
So, is this the right "type" of amplification for these Quads?
hmmmm..... Sometimes...it is easier to turn the question around a little to get the right answer ? like..... How do you know if it is "not" the right type of amplification for these Quads? ******************************** 1) Are the Canon shots on 1812 Overture so real, that you believe you are actually seeing sparks in your room; which you believe are related to gun powder. Then it’s not the right amplification for these Quads. 2) When discussing the Speakers with the Amp manufacturer, and he/she can’t answer directly with facts, and says. "Oh, don’t worry your speakers won’t hurt our AMP" Then it’s not the right amplification for these Quads. 3) When you read about reviewers talking with Peter Walker and they ask. "For people who would like to use your speakers as mid-range and high-end reproducers - do you make suggestions about what they might add for moving-coil supplement below 100Hz, say? Then it’s not the right amplification for these Quads ? Quads play down to 45hz. You will have difficulty crossing over at 100hz. (just take my word on this one) 4) When you see someone’s setup and it looks like this. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-urEs8lxKAII/Upb0foVkinI/AAAAAAAAA-w/oNYggMVMkgQ/s1600/Quad+ESL-57+advertis.... Don’t even bother asking the question.....go to the next question. But first from the Quad Owners Manual "As a general rule radiation of sound waves from the front and rear of the speaker should be restricted as little as possible. While corners and positions closer to the wall should be avoided. A corner position is often necessary for other types of loudspeakers because it accentuates the low frequencies, but such a position for the Quad will both reduce the bass seriously and cause deterioration of middle frequencies due to standing waves." 5) If someone needs to use external tweeters with the speakers. Then it’s not the right amplification for these Quads. *************************************** Having a lot of fun here w u guys.........so cold outside but a lot nicer today.....still, .......boating season seems so far away. Cheers |
^^^^^
Electrocompaniet 250R.
Rated output power
8 ohms 2 x 250 W
4 ohms 2 x 380 W
2 ohms 2 x 625 W
1 ohms 2 x 1100 W
Power consumption (no load or signal) 230 W
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in comparison
**************************
Music Reference RM10
2 x 35 watts
Power consumption (no load or signal) 70 W
The real story - imo - is how much the wattage difference grows between two when actually listening to music.
And
For those that do not have a dedicated space and can’t position speakers for the best High Frequency dispersion; Roger provides the "Quad Mod" feature on the RM10.
This is a Switch which is designed to lift (boost the response) from 2khz - 20khz. It’s a 3 position switch ( +1, 0, +2 )
The +2 position adds a boost at 2khz of 2db - This, and I quote from the RM10 owners manual.
"Brings the speakers to the brightness level of modern speakers."
*********
So you see; you really can have your cake and eat it too. Especially if your wife will not allow you to place the speakers in the room as designed for the most detail. Gets the job done, but I have to admit....
Not as funky looking as some of those external tweeters I have seen hanging off the speakers. Hey......I used to hang the things off the speakers myself .....in the earlier days. My external tweeter versions had no dial or toggle switch, but used actual resistors that I could add and remove for the desired brightness.
One benefit of those resistors hanging there; it made the speaker look more dangerous, so the wife would steer clear. Now if I can just train my kitty to stay away from them :^(
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Clio09
In my setup I use a Luxman M-02 on the bottom and either the M-60s or RM-10 on the top. Instead of modding the Luxman to house the crossover I bought a used Beveridge RM-3 (designed by Roger) and made my own low pass and high pass cards (Roger still had some blank circuit boards for the RM-3 lying around). Hi Clio09 - interesting as I also own a Beveridge RM3. I am not using it right now. Would be interested to know what frequency you are crossing over at, and, if there is a difference in the Rm3's crossover box dial - high pass "level" setting, when used with the OTL M-60 versus the Push Pull RM-10. Cheers Chris |
Hi Clio09 - the bass impedance hump at 100 hz can be managed by modified placement in the room, especially when it is a fairly large room. See pic 41 on my virtual system. It is roughly 20 x 24 with stairs going up at the back end.
I could never go back to running the speakers in stock mode on the 3 wooden legs. This setup with mid panel at approximately 44 inches, fills the room with sound. and also pretty much eliminates the head vice characteristic of the stock mode.
The preamp has two direct outputs. I am running the Quads full out on the RM10.
My subs receive a separate direct signal from the preamp and are crossed over at 60 hz. The subs each have Class A/B amps with Linkwitz-Riley crossovers. So with the RM10, three amps are being used in the setup.
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Clio09 The subs are Dynaudio Acoustics BM12s . In the search to replace the previous sub they were a kind of dark horse for me. Not really known in the consumer area in North America, but well known and used in the recordings studios. For serious listening it’s just me really, so my setup with two works really well with me sitting in the area of the couch position. If I was to extend the seating "around" the room, and needed good sound all around the room, one could just add one or two more in master slave fashion. Each sub has its own 250 Watt Class a/b amplifier. I was given the ability to trial them first. The subwoofer category in the audiophile world has to be at the top when it comes to # of choices these days ? So many choices. I find the companies like to call the way they control their woofer by a special code name. Dynaudio’s special woofer control is called CEC (Cone Excursion Control) :^) ****************************** Your comments re; RM3 settings on the OTL versus Push Pull amp were very interesting - thanks for that. There is no significant difference in the RM-3 settings with either the amps. Sometimes I trim the high end a couple dB when running the RM-10 depending on the music. I run the M-60s with 4 tubes each channel so probably about 20 watts. I do use Speltz autoformers with them at 3x setting so that bumps up their power at some frequencies. My Quad room has an adjacent music room which is really my main room - defined by (where do I go if I need a quick fix) Fwiw the Quad room can not be called my main room because the right sub is placed in very close proximity to where my wife sits upstairs ......anyway. So I was running 200 wpc OTL’s on the matrix 800 in that room. It was sweet and very nice. Then one day when they were being serviced, I subbed in my modded RM9. It outperformed the OTL’s in the bass department with half the power. That was sort of the beginning of the end for them. ****************************** sorry to digress back to the Quad 57. The three wood legs allow the speaker to be planted well. This is important. When raised it is important to affix them in a way to allow for the same thing to happen. Stock presentation is like viewing an orchestra from a balcony. I have spent time in the balconies, but it is more the norm to be in a room with multiple tables, and the band/group of musicians on an elevated stage. So the first mod was a 2x4 piece of wood under the rear leg - lowering - the projection angle of the speaker - but - raising - the soundstage. This is one example for me of "Audio Magic" happening in this Audio Hobby. When you experience this the first time, it goes against the way we think. IMO, we don’t generally think about the back wave on an ESL. From there the speakers were raised onto Arcici stands and moved 7 feet out into the room. This provided the best bass in the space, but I needed better sound dispersion. Raising another foot did it. If you click on the runner and see pic 41 - the last one shows current setup from the last year. The subs are positioned with the woofer cone slightly forward of the speakers with 0 Phase. |
