Solid state amplifiers and sound stage, especially front to back "depth"
I just listened to Canadian Brass back album Goldberg Variation.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhHa8Pfw2E8 The sound is NOT between the speakers at all.... Completely filled my room coming from different directions and i feel surrounded by them.... Then for snratio and mijostyn claiming that it is impossible that the sound fill my room but must comes only from between the speakers it is like i said for sometimes now plainly false by simple acoustic law used in room treatment (timing reflection) and room control (marking out the 2 frontwaves coming from each speaker for each ear and tuning the room also for the specific speakers)....They call that "tricks" without knowing that all acoustic is mastering of " tricks" linked to general laws and phenomena known from millenia and mature with Helmholtz....Roman and Greek and Egyptian already used big amphora in room theater like i used my tubes and Helmholtz his bottles.... Then you can use this excellent recording and interpretation to guess where you are with your room control... If your sound stay in between the speakers you are not there.... If you are immersed in the soundfield forgetting where are the speakers you are there.... Between these 3 extremes there will be levels of listener envelopment....from an imaging locked between the speakers to an imaging surrounding you.... When you have that like me for 500 bucks you dont think about an upgrade.... The sound will be better if i was upgrading my Sansui bor a Berning amplifier and my Mission speakers for i dont know what....But i can live happy with my 500 bucks system thanks to maturity design of my dac and vintage amplifier and speakers but thanks for the most part to acoustic control without which i know welll that the sound will be imaging BETWEEN the speakers not all over my room with me in them....I know because it was the same gear i used for the last 5 years before acoustic control, before vibrations control and before my relative control of the electrical noise floor.... I apologise for my long posts.... thanks for your interest and my deepest respect.... |
Mahgister, helmholtz controls sound very interesting. Can you refer me to some threads where they’re mentioned so I can read up on them? All the best,i never see someone who use a grid of Helmotlz resonators with tubes and pipes consisting of 2 or 3 sections with a volume and 2 necks of different diameter...i see boxes with cavities and holes which are also resonator specifically tuned for some frequency... I created this reading an article about the first frontwave law and when arguing here with an "objectivist" about the importance of acoustic few months ago... This article: The relation between spatial impression and the law of the first wavefront - ScienceDirect I can send it to you if you give me your adress... And read that to an introduction: https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Helmholtz.html https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1805/1805.04014.pdf This is not simple but it will give you an idea why i used volume with double neck of different diameter http://www.ica2016.org.ar/ica2016proceedings/ica2016/ICA2016-0491.pdf I adjust all my grid by trials and errors and by ears but this will give you the "gist" of the matter: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Waves/cavity.html There a plenty of materials to be inspired on the net just typing Helmholtz resonators... The idea of the grid like i use it now around 40 tubes and pipes with orientable and adjustable neck or double neck is nowhere....i found nothing resembling my idea save "Argent lens room tuner".... http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/noisy14.htm But the argent lens room tuner inspire me BUT this cost thousand bucks and after my experiment i realize that i could do better a NO cost... I did.... The first article about the firstvrontwave law was the more IMPORTANT... I realize that i must tailor the room for the speakers and not the speakers for the room (elkectronical equalization) Then i realize that i could place some resonators near the bass driver of only one of my speakers and some other resonators near the tweeter of the pther speakers, it is the way i used to MARKING OUT for each ear each speaker with a different enhenced and damped frequency different for each speaker.... This made easier the recognition of direction of the sound in my room by the brain... I placed many different resonators in 3 other locations after the speakers, near the lateral reflection area, and behind my listening position... It take near 3 months of adjustment but it was fun.... It is complete now EVERYTHING sound natural.... It was trials and errors but it is way more easy to do then most people think.... Anyway the cost was near zero bucks.... And many albums now sound like if the orchestra fill the room.... I think that even if the gear is important, for average gear under 10,000 bucks, then orfinary gear, it is the acoustic which is very important way more than electrical noise floor control or vibration control... for me passive material treatment (homemade) so good it is now was not enough.... The grid made my system a new one... I will never upgrade because the cost will be arounf 15,000 bucks to kill my 500 bucks very satisfying system.... I feel no frustration now listening anything that is better than my system... They are better but i lag behind not too far for the price i paid. The ratio S.Q./price is the key.... If you need some information feel free to ask... I am not an acoustician by the way but even if what i described seems complex mathematically, it is very easy to design if you are crafty.... I am not and it take me 1 hour to design my 6 first pipes.... You must use some aborbing stuff in the basis of the tube...if the tube is the volume for the neck i used straws if different diameter the smaller possible to a few millimeters...i Plugged smaller straw for example in finer one with tunable lenght by cut which made them easy to insert in one another.... I modified them on the spot with listening experiments... Try 3 sets of 3 like the argent room lens but with tubes of diffent volume and size, it could be made not too horrible aesthetically.... If you are in a living room i am afraid that you will not be able to do that without divorce.... I am sorry.... 😊 My best to you... |
No one is going to like this, but asides from room acoustics behind and in front of the listener, frequency changes can really alter our perception of imaging, and in this regard, I can see tube gear, more susceptible to speaker impedances, being more likely to produce some of these effects.On the contrary many will like what you say.... Because it is right... An Helmholtz resonator damp some frequency and enhance and diffuse some other.... It is a physical acoustical fact...A grid of many modify the pressure zones of the room and the imaging detph perception for sure... And you are right this have an impact on imaging and his articulation with the soundstage and also with the listener envelopment factor in relation with source width... But tube gear or not, if the S.S. is well designed like my vintage Sansui AU 7700, it work.... For tube gear effect atmasphere explained clearly why it is so and why you are right... But no tube gear can replace acoustic control, and acoustic control cannot redeem a bad S.S. design.... My best to you.... |
And again -- so many words. I am not replying anymore to histrionics.who are you? you just insult me another time... it is amusing? I prefer to be "histrionic" than being like you act.... There is no rule here about the number of words in a post but there is rule about insults.... Study acoustic instead of calling me name and dont upgrade your amplifier without doing it... Histrionic advice... |
Between the complete absence of detph imaging and holographic detph imaging filling the room there is many levels of manifestation for this acoustic quality... Some amplifier are better than others to create it.... This was explained very well by atmasphere posts... But without acoustic control of the room you cannot hope for the maximal manifestation of this quality in a room....In most of the case for sure... |
@mahgister You’ve registered your displeasure with me in a public way. You called my Helmholz resonators in the public for all to read "Goldberg Rube machine " ... Try to be FAIR at least and dont put nonchalently the blame on me because i defend myself in public when i was attacked in public like you just did in this post... It is like calling someone a clown..... Where did i unsult you? An acoustic problem cannot always be solved by panels, and save for bad design amplifier, any relatively good S.S. or tubes amplifier can produce depth imaging.... it is an acoustic problem linked to the timing of the reflections yes,reverberation time, but also to the way the pressure zones of the room are distributed... These pressures zones can be modified by resonators because contrary to panels the resonators damp some frequencies and enhance others frequencies at the same time....When the geometry of a room is too irregular it can create unwanted pressures zones... then before upgrading an amp or speakers, or buying costly panels, why not trying no cost resonators you coud make yourself esthetical ...If you read you can even use them in a completely different form than my "Rube Goldberg way" with a grid of tubes and pipes for example with a box with a distribution of perforated cavities.... No cost, fun experiment and you work at the right place because depth imaging is an acoustical phenomenon linking TIMING and pressure zones distribution... My own amplifier/speaker never produce it before my acoustic experiment... Now i have it with all files accordingly to the S.Q of the recording process... «The sound impinging on a Helmholtz resonator that is not absorbed is reradiated. As the sound is reradiated from the resonator opening, it tends to be radiated in a hemisphere. This means that unabsorbed energy is diffused, and diffusion of sound is very desirable in a studio or listening room.» Master handbook of acoustics by Everest, Frederick Alton Pohlmann, Ken C. p.283 If not peace, at least détente. Where is the war? you insulted me i reacted...At least admit it.... Or am i just a "clown" you must calm? i dont hate people at all here.... But i react if attacked like you did.... |
it is not an "accident".... it is not the first "warning" from him.... with this time a "diplomatic" insult.... Annoyance, yes, but not in anger.if you were annoyed for the first time and without insulting my device which is pure science, i would not had react and i will have apologize like i have already.... But i am not the only one at fault here.... i have the right to answer someone else than you in a post by the way...... Others can decide if my point was fair. To decide others must know that you warned me on a regular basis....But an insult is a bit too much for my temper... Sorry... I am not a children to warn nor a clown to warn.... And learn acoustic to know the difference between a Rube Goldberg machine and a no cost Helmholtz resonator... And before reacting against me in each thread think about my description of the powerful control someone could use with them to tune all acoustic features..... Study to learn if i am RIGHT or WRONG.... Spare me your paternal insult....Instead refute my claims with acoustic laws.... i cannot apologize for being too enthusiast, save if someone dont insult me and ask with humor....And i keep the right to answer SOMEONE ELSE post at any time ....Are we free? |
@mahgister I’ve already stated that I’ve paid a lot of attention to the room. You’re dissertating on your favorite topic and celebrating your (apparently effective) Rube Goldberg inventions, at length, and hopefully someone benefits. It does nothing for the question at issue in my OP, but whatever. You want to write a long post about what you know and what you do and how inexpensive but effective it is? Have at it.I was answering to something i judged to be wrong FROM SOMEONE ELSE NOT FROM YOUR EGO....Is the threads here always for the one person asking something? Many read these posts like me.... I dont speak about politic or race or rap here....Then why not use your philosophical bent to make remark at least with humor? especially because you cannot refrain to correct me.... And i dont think my experiment with what you called "a Rube Goldberg invention" in a gibe , and which is called in science a Helmhotlz resonator , is out of the subject matter, save if you think that the question you asked only interested you... i dont know why, but you must perhaps begin to forget about a post that is not for you or then banned explicitly in your thread anything you judge out of matter or anyone you decide to hate... I will post when i judge it necessary if i want to answer someone....in ANY thread... I dont act inappropriately.... I dont think that a long post is a motive for hate .... Say it with humor i will apologize.... Take my place and read your 4 or 5 warnings against me with the same false neutral tone in other threads... Spare me FURTHER warning and call the moderator instead... By the way this acoustic subject about NO COST Helmholtz resonators is very important and NO ONE, save me, explain it...I know that for you i am an idiot with cheap "rube goldberg" fad but i dont like to be insulted...Especially if i am right... Go and look all thread...No one speak about that very important acoustical use the way it may be used...They sell acoustic panel but it is half the job.... And this is NOT MY OPINION, this is pure acoustic fact... Then before " diplomatically" insulting my device which is not a KENJIT machine nor a Rube Goldberg one save for audio snobs with costly devices, but only a legit acoustic device, think 2 times... I am also philosophically inclined , then dont be surprized if i speak about philosophy in some other threads and keep your warning.... You are not god here... I think i prefer direct insult from someone instead of being "diplomatically" warned with words without humor and a "paternal" cold tone....Hate me in silence ...By the way i like Rube Goldberg but i really hate to be treated like a clown.... I understand why you speak but try to understand other perspective...You are not the center of the world and i am not the only one to hate here... And try to refute my arguments in acoustic or other matter, instead of "warning" me.... |
Solid state amps do not play depth in the recording unless the recording has depth information but when you play a good recording they will have a lot of depth especially if your speakers are two or more feet out from the wall behind them.In a room with acoustic controls in place, any relatively good amplifier WELL DESIGNED, produce depth accordingly proportionate to the ability of the recording engineer. ANY "well designed" S.S. or tubes.... Most people think they listen to their turntable or dac or amplifier or speakers.... It is a half-truth, then worst than a falsity.... We listen WITH and FROM the room filled by the reflecting waves crossing different pressure zones ... Then for sure there is a difference in sound quality between dacs or amplifiers or speakers.... But there is most of the times way more less difference between pieces of gear than the huge difference between listening in an acoustically controlled room OR in an uncontrolled one... Why most people then speak without end about the differences in sound between their gear pieces and only boast about them? Because all marketing is there to sell "sonic heaven" with the only pieces which they can sell at the price of gold: electronical design engineering new pieces of gear.... I used straws and empty cardboard rolls and discardeed plumbers tubes and pipes from my basement to create my grid of Helmholtz resonators.... Then i know what i speak about.... The audiophile value of a system is not the price paid but is BASED on the OPTIMAL RATIO : Sound quality/price... When we have any good audio system optimal by this ratio( then it is not the costlier in the world) we must take care of the ACOUSTIC of the room to go to another level.... Not necessary now to upgrade a piece at all cost by frustration...Like most people thought and did without paying attention to the acoustic... Another reason i must say is that most people are in the obligation, with no other choice, to put their system in a common room and CANNOT transform the living room into an audio laboratory like i did in a dedicated room... Sorry for you... 😥 But now you know that the most luxury and opulent tool in audio is not a piece of gear but the ROOM..... Reading posts in audio, i know for sure that most people has never lived through this process of going from an ordinary room to a controlled room....If they would have do it , they will vouch about their room value FIRST not about a branded name of speakers or amplifiers.... It is easy to replace any piece of gear by a better one, less easy to learn how to control room acoustic... And sorry buying costly acoustic panels will not do the job only half of of the job, and no sellers of acoutic panels anyway can say this truth to you if they want to sell their "miraculous" panels.... To do a good job may cost the price to enroll an acoustician for more than a week for activation of the room and not just put panels here or there.. I read an acoustician who speak about 50,000 bucks to do the job ... 😊😁 It cost me empty toilet paper rolls and straws, cardboard empty roll, plastic tube,metal pipes of various diameters etc ... Nobody will believe me.... But an Helmholtz engine do not need a precious metal enclosure or special material to work..... Acoustic MAY cost nothing, save the time of the listenings experiments like a piano tuner tune a piano, you can tune your room.... By the way my ears are average, no need of these "golden ears" spoke about by idiots....But average ears need more time..... It takes me full time 2 months for my grid.... It has been longer but not full time for the passive material treatment.... |
Tube amplifier are very vulnerable to vibrations for sure.... In a bad acoustical room (most room) they will fare better than most S.S. because of their more organic quality... But many S.S. amplifier can sound organic too.... I own one... Vibrations is a problem for all gear, anyway....like acoustic is or electrical noise floor.... |
Your correct this is the biggest killer for depth, there should be nothing between the speakers as far back as possible, even the wall should go, and leave small 1mt sections behind the speakers for bass loading. My setup, and I have depth of image out into the garden https://ibb.co/VTRJ0WhToo simplistic and too drasctic in a way and not enough drastic in another way.... My speakers are near the wall and even one is few inches included in a corner wall, on my desk, with dac amplifier and computer screen between speakers... Guess what? my depth imaging is very good in TWO listening positions, and my sound fill my room... Why? Not only passive material treatment with a good balance between reflecting, absorbing and diffusive surface but ALSO a grid of Helmholtz resonators to activate my room and tune it.... |
Many solid state amplifier manufactures and reviewers boast about having a tube like sound. When is the last time that you have seen a tube amp manufacturer boast about having a solid state like sound? I wonder why that is?Very astute observation... I bought my Sansui AU 7700 7 years ago after reading an article about the Sansui original designer and their desire to reproduce EXACTLY their best tube amplifier in solid state.... It takes 20 years.... They make a public test to compare the sound and there was no distinction.... this was the main reason i bought a Sansui instead of any other vintage legendary design....I never look back.... |
My deepest thanks for your toughtful explanation....Useful for all....Then there is less well designed S.S. amplifiers on the market than we may think?IMO, yes. |
My tube amps produce front to back depth that any solid state amp that I have owned could not match!Very interesting post ..... Thanks.... The most back to front depth possible experience may include the listener itself and create some effect like in headphone... It is my experience WITH a solid state amplifier, then acoustical control indeed play a great role... My Sansui is a good amplifier BUT not the best in the world then acoustic explain my experience... And tube amplifier resist more to bad acoustical environment than most S.S. if someone think that i am wrong i will listen to him...I am absolutely not a specialist.... this question thread is interesting .... thanks to the O.P. My best to all... |
Interesting coming from a specialist....Question: Is it typical of solid state amps to have less of a front to back sound stage than tube amps? Do they vary in this regard?Yes and yes. Then there is less well designed S.S. amplifiers on the market than we may think? And my acoustical pledge is not all there is then and the only reason for this back-front depth , certainly the amplifier design must play his role... i will trust the specialist.... thanks.... |
I know my room is capable of that sound stage because my tube amp accomplishes it.I used a Sansui Au 7700 solid state amplifier....and i have a front to back listener inclusion....The complete sensation to be in the soundstage while listening many good recording... But 2 years ago it was not the case at all.... The room acoustic control was the reason in my case of this improvement ... I think that tube amplification resist more to acoustic limited or not optimal conditions...It is the only way i can explain to myself your experience...Anything "analog" resist more to non optimal acoustical control or lack of control....Digital could store more potential information but suffer more if the optimal acoustic did not help it.... But i am not a specialist of these questions.... It is my interpretation only... Others more experienced than me may have better answers.... I am curious about others people answers.... |
