So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...

perkri460 posts05-20-2021 9:10pm@edgewound.  

Why?

Why what? 

I presented an honest query as discussed by physicists. Many commenters twisted the meaning of said query...you being one of them...and in pretty short order, the whole thing has turned into farce. 

Apparently asking people their views on something that is seemingly controversial gets interpreted as trolling. And BTW...you're one of the facilitators of denying the science...and when you personally don't like my comments, you simply delete my posts. 

And...did you ever answer my query...or just avoid the subject due to conflicts of interest?

cleeds3,820 posts05-21-2021 4:37amedgewound

... asking people their views on something that is seemingly controversial gets interpreted as trolling.

Nonsense. This forum is filled with questions on "seemingly controversial" topics. You're quite new here, so perhaps you didn't notice that.

... when you personally don't like my comments, you simply delete my posts.

Only the moderators can delete posts. You might want to read their rules for participating in the forum.

The moderators post and read, too. Every other forum in which I participate reveals moderator status by the user name. 

Who are the moderators deleting my posts? 

andy21,320 posts05-21-2021 9:51pmAhem .... I got something the objectivists can chew on. Given the complexity, this will probably take them some times. Unless, djones et al ... can possess sonar capability, hearing by itself is not going to give you accurate localization.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2674475/

The visual and auditory systems frequently work together to facilitate the identification and localization of objects and events in the external world. Experience plays a critical role in establishing and maintaining congruent visual–auditory associations, so that the different sensory cues associated with targets that can be both seen and heard are synthesized appropriately. For stimulus location, visual information is normally more accurate and reliable and provides a reference for calibrating the perception of auditory space. During development, vision plays a key role in aligning neural representations of space in the brain, as revealed by the dramatic changes produced in auditory responses when visual inputs are altered, and is used throughout life to resolve short-term spatial conflicts between these modalities. However, accurate, and even supra-normal, auditory localization abilities can be achieved in the absence of vision, and the capacity of the mature brain to relearn to localize sound in the presence of substantially altered auditory spatial cues does not require visuomotor feedback. Thus, while vision is normally used to coordinate information across the senses, the neural circuits responsible for spatial hearing can be recalibrated in a vision-independent fashion. Nevertheless, early multisensory experience appears to be crucial for the emergence of an ability to match signals from different sensory modalities and therefore for the outcome of audiovisual-based rehabilitation of deaf patients in whom hearing has been restored by cochlear implantation.

Ahem...I guess you did read the first paragraph of the link I posted above.

Within 2 degrees. Pretty darn accurate with using your eyes.

"The brain has an amazing ability to identify the source of sounds around you. When driving, you can tell where an approaching fire truck is coming from and pull over accordingly. In the classic swimming pool game of “Marco Polo,” the player who is “it” swims toward the players who says “Polo.” In the field of neuroscience, this ability is called sound localization. Humans can locate the source of a sound with extreme precision (within 2 degrees of space)! This remarkable feat is accomplished by the brain’s ability to interpret the information from both ears. So how does your brain do it?"

He’s stuck on physics from 500 years ago. That’s all I need to know. His broadbrushing of engineers is also just plain wrong, ignorant and flat out dumb to make such definitive statements.

 Newton was the most brilliant scientist of the last 500 years.

Yeah...ok...let's go with that. Newtonian Physics has been updated since then...just a little.

mahgister5,543 posts05-21-2021 3:13pm

He’s stuck on physics from 500 years ago. That’s all I need to know. His broadbrushing of engineers is also just plain wrong, ignorant and flat out dumb to make such definitive statements.

I apologized yesterday to you by distorting one of your post about some/all psychologists.... And you were right, sometimes we react not so cleverly than what we think...

I think your answer of this post is way more a distortion than mine was about yours...

I expect your mischaracterization like mine is an accident...

This scientist DOES NOT stick to the newtonian paradign in his post.... Suggesting the opposite is not faithful to his post...


I hope you will recognize that fact ....

My response was not about you.

nonoise7,074 posts05-21-2021 2:08pmBefore the advent of testing equipment, that's how the world ran, and pretty well too. Lots of science laid down to go by and all without a scope, monitor, or gauge.

All the best,
Nonoise

Wow...you win the internet today with that one.

andy21,319 posts05-21-2021 4:04pm

I’m not saying to measure anything. Just don’t cheat and use your eyes when trying to judge what you’re hearing. That’s all.

djones apparently doesn’t know how the brain functions in term of localizing a sound source. Both eyes and ears are needed for the brain to process and localize where the sound is coming from.

This is incorrect. You don’t need to see that a sound is coming from the front, sides, or back. Must you look at a surround sound speaker to hear that it’s coming from the side or rear? Binaural hearing is quite an amazing invention. Eyesight has nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, lack of eyesight happens to sharpen that sense.

https://knowingneurons.com/2013/03/15/how-does-the-brain-locate-sound-sources/

It’s called derailing a thread.

Wow. Perception is everything...except absolute.

mahgister5,550 posts05-21-2021 8:28pm

Wow. Perception is everything...except absolute

I never said that sound which is not only a physical phenomena but also a psychoacoustic one is "absolute".... I said that sound experience cannot be reduced to measuring tools but only CORRELATED with them...

I also said that sound perception contrary to a voltmeter or a frequencies meter or any other electronical engineering tools is MULTIDIMENSIONAL and not unidimensional like each one of these tool...

Your "wow" is only a derision not an argument .....

You keep straying from and continue to derail the entire discussion. It was brought up that vision is used to figure out where sounds are coming from...eyes. It’s been studied that eyes are not part of the process, yet visual processes in the brain help process the localization of sounds...even without the benefit of having eyes.

Without using your eyes. Too late to edit.

yesiamjohn3 posts05-22-2021 5:29amDjones51, you are going about this all wrong. Things like this used to bother me, but I found it is better to let audiophiles have their cable delusions. The more the better. The more they spend on cables the less money they have to spend on the things that matter to sound. That means less competition for us to purchase those items. The more they spend on things that don’t matter the less we need to spend on that do.


Let them twist science with their rather interesting views, let them insult engineers. It tells much about them and they hurt themselves more than anyone else. They make fun of other websites meanwhile the likes of Toole and Pass, and many actual audio experts will post at those sites, not here. People who have moved the science sound forward are not here are they? I did see Ted Denney started to post here though. See what I mean?

Bravo. Well stated.

boxer126,493 posts05-22-2021 5:50pmyesiamjohn,
Since you're "new" here... Do you actually believe everyone who hears a difference in cables is delusional, or does that just pertain (in your opinion) to those who can hear a difference in wire directionality?  

Would you be willing to participate in a double blind test to see if you can really tell if the signal flow in a wire is directional? Do you have the confidence in your hearing to discern the difference?

boxer126,493 posts05-22-2021 9:09pmnonoise,
I believe "steakster" nailed it on another thread earlier this evening:

yesiamjohn

aka

sugabooger

aka

dletch2

aka

audio2design

aka

dannad

aka

roberttdid

aka

heaudio123

aka

audiozenology

aka

atdavid

Don't quit your day job to all of a sudden think you are Columbo. You are not as good at detective work as you think you are.

audition__audio844 posts05-23-2021 8:48amWell I knew this would be the response. The directionality of wire is not really what is important in this discussion.

Actually...It IS important to the discussion, because many manufacturers claim they "listen" to the wire to determine its directionality, therefore the cable has much better resolution, noise floor,"blacker background"... These claims can actually be backed up by measurement of the frequency response, resitance, capacitance, and inductance. Feelings can't be measured or quantified other than a very high price point....must be better because they said so.

I really dont care, but the idea that someone who diminishes the personal experience as paramount in this hobby and is talking about a universal reality is very concerning. Because you are so quick to dismiss indicates to me that you are in no position to mentor anyone. The fact that you close your mind to other possibilities automatically disqualifies you as an objective source of information. You would portray your opinions as facts and quote some propeller head and to add credence.

Ahhh...But you do care, otherwise you wouldn't be participating in this thread. It's your desire to "mentor"...Really? Are you this shallow to think you are a mentor to some young audio enthusiast that might go astray by FOMO from not going down the Rabbit Hole of spending thousands of dollars on cable that make magical claims, when their money is FAR better spent on amps and speakers that play well together. The magic starts in the quality of the recording, gets amplified and turned into air moving soundwaves by the speakers. Thousands of dollars of "audiophile" cables are not going to outperform "broadcast quality. If you get a thrill out spending car level money on cables, that's your prerogative. But "mentoring" someone to practice that is simply an attempt to justify a business model built on lies and fantasy.

Again lets compare experience and systems. Or do you believe that all systems are equally resolving? The fact that you are digital only is very telling as is my preference for vinyl.

Of course not all systems are equally resolving. It's a statement like this that reveals that your mind is closed to anyone that disputes what you believe in, and simply will not tolerate any discussion of why. Your mind is made up. Refusal to participate in blind listening tests, measurements of electrical properties, etc., is akin to believing that bloodletting is a good medical practice.

As far as vinyl vs. digital goes, each has a reason for it's preference. I simply like to hear excellent recordings. Vinyl can do that, along with the romance of ritual with an LP record and accompanying packaging. From a purely technical standpoint, modern digital done right far surpasses that of a vinyl record. Ask Bob Clearmountain and Bob Ludwig. 

That said....it's not at all surprising that you folks throw tantrums and insults when not agreed with in lockstep. You get what you give.

I don’t know him, nor do I know anyone else posting here. The only member that has ever PMed me is GeoffKait, and it seems he’s been suspended. Interesting character. He seems drawn to me for some reason, that I’d rather not try to analyze.

To what friend are you referring?

djones514,034 posts05-23-2021 2:49pmFor some reason you want to know my system. I don't see the relevance but it's strictly digital. Lumin U1 mini streamer, 2 Genelec 7350 subwoofers and 2 Genelec 8351b monitors GLM calibration. Various room treatments. Pro mogami AES3 cables. This is now I've had more gear than worth mentioning, including vinyl and tubes. What I've learned is respect the measurements, engineering, source media and reputation of the manufacturers and they'll get you better sound than playing with worthless tweaks and lousy measuring speakers which is about 85% of your listening experience anyway along with the room.

You do realize those Genelecs are simply to sterile, clinical and lifeless to do you any good. You must replace your Mogami interconnects with something north of $20 grand to darken...blacken, if you will... the background palette, eliminate the noise floor to a bottomless quantum tunnel, and soften the edges of those godawful tweeters. Probably Quantum Tunneled power cables and fuses will add to your enjoyment from such a rudimentary, beginner, entry level system.😉😂

thyname1,275 posts05-23-2021 6:32pmI can assure everyone here edgewound is NOT Dletch2, Audio2Design, Atdavid, Dannad, etc. or any of the reiterates of that entity. That one was way smarter, and knew a thing or two, despite the sick tendencies of what he used that knowledge for. This Edgewood guy is just a wannabe copycat.

I copy no one’s behavior. I’d especially not wannabe like you, bub. Alan Parson's wrote a song about it.

Yep...I'm clueless on why people can be so gullible when it comes to audio and signal flow.

@clearthink...it sounds like you’re looking in the mirror as you wrote that.

But… Thanks for the compliments.

The benefit of active monitors like these Genelecs is internally triamped and amps matched to drivers. I’m not a fan of active subs in theory because of heat and vibration shorten amp life.

Elac Navis are huge performance values.

Funny how the discussion has moved away from measuring cables’ properties to measuring speakers.

Not quite the same.

andy21,333 posts05-24-2021 4:48pmIf you hear a difference but your measurement instruments are saying no difference, then there is something wrong with the way you measure.

You don't go to your doctor to have your ears checked. That would be a bit odd. I don't know of anyone who would come to this conclusion.  

Just curious...What does a doctor know about hearing?

I don't know of anyone who would come to the conclusion that a doctor would not check one's hearing?

boxer126,504 posts05-24-2021 8:25pmJerry,
One example IRT cable construction is floating the shield on one end, which is often done with phono cables.

We've already discussed that...and the jury is still out if it's even effective.

The question is about the directionality of the wire conductors themselves/itself. 

ted_denney21 posts05-24-2021 9:07pmIt’s easy to hear, conductors in a cable have a directional effect on the sound. In fact you’d either have to be deaf, have a horribly set up stereo, or an insurmountable expectation bias not to hear the difference.

Ted Denney
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.

Leave it to Ted to come up with a response that prebiases any expectation bias response.

Explain how and why the cable is directional, how the energy propagates through the conductor, and do you listen to each strand of conductor in each multiconductor cable assembly to determine which direction the cable should be oriented? and...What are the electrical parameters of these analog filters that you create?

audition__audio852 posts05-25-2021 3:11pmedgewound,

Why should anyone explain anything to you? You havent earned the right. What good would it do!

carlsbad,

I always heard that the directionality of a passive cable is due to the direction it comes off the spool. Not saying I agree with this, but just saying.

I've earned plenty. Your frat boy mentality and demeanor is pretty entertaining, though.

Your second statement, here, is evidence that you're not in agreement with cable directionality.

boxer126,510 posts05-25-2021 5:10pmedgewhatever,
As stated in the first word of my post... My very cordial & friendly response was to Jerry (the fake physicist), not you.

Your "cordial and friendly" response to Jerry (the fake physicist) is evidence that you don't even understand the premise on my OP. Your explanation was inaccurate to the subject matter. Many posters on this thread didn't bother to comprehend the entire premise, and steered the subject to floating, single ended shields. Some don't even understand how that's done in practice....but mansplain what they don't know anyway....like you do.

Likewise. Namaste`...as they say...somewhere.

It's a frat boy thing around here. Groupthink. BTW...I'm not the only one around here that is a skeptic of uber expensive cables. I have said there are good cables and bad cables. No cable is worth $10,000. No cable is worth four figures for a few feet. If that's what you wanna spend on cables, knock yourself out.

And...I didn't remove my own post...some snowflake did...and the Report button has gone missing from mine....and your paranoia that I will show up under another moniker is pretty funny. 

clearthink1,233 posts05-27-2021 1:53pm
edgewound"No cable is worth $10,000."

What you fail to recognize, understand, and comprehend is that for some people $10,000 USD would be not a lot of money it would be an expense they could easily absorb that may be difficult for you to accept if you are watching your dad work two jobs just to pay the rent but for some others it would not be a big deal and you can not say it is not worth it to them you can only say it is not worth it to you. If your father or parent(s) guardians are struggling to meet family expenses which is what it sounds like it is of course hard for you to understand why some others could or would spend that kind of money for cables.


Without meaning to be rude, impolite, or disrespectful to you if cables such as this bother you another group might be better ask your dad to help you find one. In the US Scouting is a very popular activity for youth and it might be good for you too!

I recognize everything about you, just from this post. Alan Parsons wrote a song exactly about you. Be very careful...Karma is watching.

Why would I want to silence those I disagree with?...and vice versa? Discussions are supposed to be an exchange of ideas.

The thing with uber expensive cables is the marketing claims that are flat out outrageous at AUDIO FREQUENCIES. These things can be measured. Differences in measurements at AUDIO FREQUENCIES can be heard.

I don’t care what you spend your money on, I simply want manufacturers to prove their claims are a physical attribute and not psychological. Speaker systems and amplifiers can change their sound daily based on ambient temperature, humidity, and how much air is in a room at any given moment. Ears also change response based on how long one has been listening and at what SPL. Show me where a cable... an esoteric cable manufacturer discloses these things.

BTW...thanks for the "Report" tip. I’ve seen it before but failed to remember about the cursor.

oldhvymec2,960 posts05-27-2021 2:41pmOP if your version of "Frat boy" is a LOT of us agree cables sound different, you’re right. If you install them one way and there are NO ARROWS and then install it the other way and DO or DON’T hear a difference, what camp does that put someone in?

Like a few poster here believe in bundles of cables, others mix and match, others zip cord.

I don’t think there are TWO camps, I think there are several different ideas, and not all will pass scrutiny. The neat part is it (how it sounds or doesn’t) can be ignored by ME or YOU. Still doesn’t change the fact someone has a better sounding system even though you or I can’t hear the difference that others can.

When two people have the exact same boxes, ALL the same. The room, the preamp, the amp, the speaker boxes, EVERYTHING is the same and the only difference is cabling.. That is an eye opener. That is what changed my mind 40 years ago on "different", cables sound different ways..

I truly think the biggest issue is not direction (I thought that was figured out 30 years ago) per say but SIZE. Bigger is not better, but it sure will do damage because of WEIGHT and size..

I’ve seen more than a few systems sound BAD behind BIG PC and oversized speaker ICs. Direction is a bonus and pays dividends in the construction of cables right on down to how you coil up a cable when IN use or NOT.

I suppose static discharge/drop and flop cabling sounds as good a carefully routed, pre coiled, pre conditioned, terminal end treated (with contact enhancer) cabling..

I really thought "Cable Direction" was a 30 year OLD topic.

Are there 20K speaker cables? Only if someone else pays for them.. Not ME..

I just looked at a 15K piece of stained glass that someone else commissioned to be made.. NOT ME!! I'm a 300.00 kind of guy and get out the soldering iron and glass cutter.. :-)

Amazing!

I've recently seen speaker cables advertised from a manufacturer that are $30K for an 8 foot pair. 

teo_audio1,885 posts05-27-2021 2:46pm

The thing with uber expensive cables is the marketing claims that are flat out outrageous at AUDIO FREQUENCIES. These things can be measured. Differences in measurements at AUDIO FREQUENCIES can be heard.

uh, sorry to inform you but intermixing harmonics and their result in how they are handled at the ear, deals with an expression in ultrahigh frequencies across a basically dc to light speed kind of frequency response requirement, in audio cables.
audio cables are easily seen and explained as the most complex signals that are dealt with in the world of electronics and signal transfer. easily. I’ll say it again. Easily.

When this was explained to a person who works at the peak of telecommunications industry and deals with the physics of various forms of transmission, they ended up agreeing. This is a person, btw..that basically has their masters in the physics of signal transmission.
So, please, get a grip. Go talk to an expert if you can’t figure it out. Get educated.

Show me your evidence. Don’t tell me. I have friend that’s a PhD in physics. Experts in science require evidence. So far, you’ve provided none to the discussion.

taras22380 posts05-27-2021 2:39pm

how much air is in a room at any given moment

....?....

Since it is " at any given moment" we can rule out altitude issues. Then we have to assume that air pressure changes over a given moment are at play and that would require air movement. So, any thoughts about how the direction of the air flow would affect the sound ? ( you know, as it moves in and out of the room ).

Cheers

That's a great question. Air is the medium that carries sound waves in a listening room...unless your listening under water...where sounds waves travel faster. Notice how sound is different on a hot clear day vs. humid day vs. cold, cloudy, or especially foggy day?

Would it make sense that the changes in atmospheric conditions in a room would have an influence of soundwave transmission? No medium...no sound. Sound travels through different mediums at different speeds. That's something you can find with a Google search.