So Weird- No Stylus Contact Woofer Pumping with Hana ML and Elac PPA-2

Maybe I can pick up some cheap XLR to RCA adapters just for fun and see if it repeats.

I think the problem is stored energy in the vinyl and the mat- either separately or combined. 
 

I’m not sure if an earth grounded chassis would help. This TT is not earth grounded. The motor power is a 2 prong feed from a 120/100 volt step down transformer. The native power being Japanese 100v 60hz.

 

If it was a magnet on the platter, the problem would occur when the platter had no record or mat. If you look at the video, you’ll see that does not occur.

Attention Deficit Disorder? You’re probably just noticing it because you weren’t paying attention before.

I’m thinking an SUT might be a solution. Any thoughts on that?

Which definition? What do you call the period of time in which a DC signal increases in amplitude, repeatedly and predictably, after which it decreases in amplitude repeatedly and predictably? 
 

 

Also- you were right about the AC- it was going positive and negative, slowly but plus and minus none the less. Apologies.

Wow that's a lot of homework. As much as I would love to, I'm not going to re-create the thing I just got rid of without some possible explanation as to what was going on. It's working in single end mode and sounds really nice.

Phono stage is an ELAC PPA-2 and yes it has a balanced input option on input two. It's activated with DS 3&4.

I did the test with and without a platter mat. Platter mat only creates the pumping. Record with no mat creates the pumping. Platter with nothing- no problem.

Mat is a Funk Firm Achromat. 

I didn't say anything about DC on an AC line. (..........never mind)

Cheers

The video already answers most of the questions and discards most of the solutions being discussed, please take a look before making a suggestion:

 

Static charge is the best explanation yet. I use an AQ Anti Static brush but it didn't do much if anything.

The Funk Firm mat is a plastic material.

Plastics can hold and build a charge see the OSHA Warning https://www.osha.gov/publications/hib19880930

I appreciate the response but if you watched the video............

I’m betting on static. I live in Utah and the air is incredibly dry.

I looked it up it’s 5.8kg or 12.87lbs

The two holes on the platter are threaded so you can attach a pair of removal bolts- it’s ridiculously heavy.

@dweller , I had one of those when I was a teenager back in the late 70's, it's funny to see it again. So funny I'll have to buy one- again.

Let’s review,

Woofer pumping is tied to rotation speed, the pumping is faster at 45 than 33 also spinning the platter by hand will excite the woofers.

A- Pumping exists when the system set up is: Balanced output from tonearm to balanced input at phono preamp and:

1. Stylus is over the play surface and the platter is rotating- not off to the side (it also persists with the stylus on the record).
2. There is a just a record on the platter (rotating)
3. There is a just a mat on the platter (rotating)- the mat is a synthetic material.
4. There is a mat and a record together (rotating)

B- Woofer pumping stops when:

1. There is platter rotation and the platter is empty, no record, no mat
2. There is no rotation regardless of what on the platter.

B1- Disproves the magnet in the platter theory. Also the platter is hot forged and is as close as humanly possible to 100% pure aluminum. There are no ferrous metals involved.

Static electricity is just that static, hanging on for as long as it takes to discharge to an object of lower potential. I believe it’s widely accepted that vinyl records are able to hold a static charge. So I’m all in on that.

@nrenter I’d be interested to check the humidity of your house-

25%RH right now.

if you wet-wash or simply dry brush your records, etc.

Wet wash occasionally, dry brush prior to use.

Did the single ended connection really solve your problem?

Yes

Did the rewiring create a better ground path?

Ummmmm... maybe? I just check continuity and move on.

Why do people feel the need to comment without watching your video?

I don’t know, it’s annoying.

@lewm The issue with the pumping occurred over a period period of days and the video shows only the effect and it’s current solution.

To me the bigger question is about the implementation of balanced phono output overall. I was pretty eager to try balanced output in my system for it’s obvious benefits, 6db boost over single end, inherent in system noise reduction etc. I was not expecting to see a whole new problem surface.

I would really be interested to hear from anyone with a balanced output system as to how their experience is going.

It’s possible this is one reason so few phono preamps offer this feature. I know Project has a whole program for balanced TT’s. If so, I’m guessing they have incorporated solutions to situations like this.

There could be a simple wiring fix to this.

I will be looking into static control and once I have some tools on hand, I’ll probably attempt the Balanced output experiment again.

 

 

Wiring for the tonearm to the preamp was as follows:

• Pin 1- no connection
• Pin 2- + positive
• Pin 3- - negative
• Shell ground- cable shield

Why was it wired like that? I agree the typical connection is pin 1 for the shield. See excerpt from the Elac PPA-2 Manual:

"Typically a balanced connection will be more immune to hum, so it would be the preferred connection. However, you must be careful that the shell of the XLR is not connected directly to the ground line within the XLR connector ( That sentence is a little confusing but I take it to mean that the shell of the XLR should not be connected to pin 1). They SHOULD be independent. The shell is the external shield of the cable and connector, and should be the CHASSIS connection. The ground wire within the XLR is twisted with the (+) and (-) balanced and should be the signal or tonearm ground. This can all be confirmed with an Ohm meter. "

The PPA-2 has two ground lugs, one for tone arm ground (labeled ground) and one for chassis ground (labeled chassis). Since there is no chassis ground on the GT2000, that lug remains unused. The tonearm ground is connected via the other ground lug.

The cable shield is NOT connected at the TT end, but is connected via XLR shell to the chassis ground.

 

 

Take a look for yourself

 

@fsonicsmith I thought that if I got continuity from cartridge white pin to XLR L pin 2, blue to L pin 3, red to R pin2 and green to R pin 3, and if George Cardas welcomed to the right channel on the right side and in phase was in the middle I was pretty good. What did I miss?

Yes

as per previous post 

A- Pumping exists when the system set up is: Balanced output from tonearm to balanced input at phono preamp and:

1. Stylus is over the play surface and the platter is rotating- not off to the side (it also persists with the stylus on the record).
2. There is a just a record on the platter (rotating)
3. There is a just a mat on the platter (rotating)- the mat is a synthetic material.
4. There is a mat and a record together (rotating)

B- Woofer pumping stops when:

1. There is platter rotation and the platter is empty, no record, no mat
2. There is no rotation regardless of what on the platter.

@ejb14

1. Isn’t woofer pumping caused by infrasonic frequencies (below 20hz)?

Yes it is

2. The PPA-2 has a rumble filter and I believe that I saw it turned on when the woofer pumping is occurring - doesn’t a rumble filter filter out these frequencies precisely for this reason - to prevent large woofer excursions?

The weird thing is that the hi pass filter works, I have some real nasty LP’s that rumble and the filter knocks it out. So your guess is as good as mine. Also the pumping was worse with the filter off- real audible bottoming out stuff.

3. Not sure how static would cause the cartridge to output signal in the infrasonic range. Even so, the Funk Firm mat claims to be static free, yet with just that mat on the platter still exposed this issue; so if not static, then what?

I’m still all in with team static, until a more likely explanation is revealed or Peter Madnick see’s this and can explain it.

 

@mijostyn take a look for yourself 

 

Finally!! Someone who runs balanced!! Did you read this?

excerpt from the Elac PPA-2 Manual:

"Typically a balanced connection will be more immune to hum, so it would be the preferred connection. However, you must be careful that the shell of the XLR is not connected directly to the ground line within the XLR connector ( That sentence is a little confusing but I take it to mean that the shell of the XLR should not be connected to pin 1). They SHOULD be independent. The shell is the external shield of the cable and connector, and should be the CHASSIS connection. The ground wire within the XLR is twisted with the (+) and (-) balanced and should be the signal or tonearm ground. This can all be confirmed with an Ohm meter. "

I did not connect the tone arm ground to pin1. The tone arm to preamp cables are shielded star quad, so there isn’t an available wire from the arm to run the tone arm gnd. That's running externally, like a regular turntable cable. The shield ground is connected to the shell at the preamp end and floats at the other end.

That’s my deviation from the manual and although I doubt that is the issue, my doubts generally have no effect on the real world.

What do you think?

@lewm  You appear to be under the impression that everything I tried with that problem was shown on the video, that I just happened to be shooting a video as I was listening to records, as we all do, and shared this comic little problem because I'm off my meds.. 

That is not the case, what you see in the video; for you, the first time, was for me the umpteenth time. It was a problem that persisted over many hours, restart cycles, wiring checks, different records, different mats, disconnections and reconnections. If it's a red herring, it's extremely reliable.

Once I realized it was not going to go away, I shot the video because just explaining it in writing would stretch credibility past any reasonable point. 

 

@jpaulfreeland74 Great question and the answer is yes, it’s both and in phase.

@fsonicsmith1 Wow

@lewm you may be correct about the oscillating- not enough information right now. I’m re-wiring the tone this weekend with Audionote Silver and silver clips- I’ll have everything apart anyway so I might as well try again. 

Just to be clear, I’m not changing anything else until I have time and another excuse to play with wires, which will probably be tomorrow.

My primary reason for posting this was to see if anyone else had seen this and perhaps knew a solution. Google search yielded no results for this specific problem so I thought, why not? I can run it single ended with no trouble until I have time to dig back in.

 

Ok I tried the compass- nothin’

I think it would smell very fresh!

I mentioned that I would be re-wiring my tone arm this weekend and I have completed that. I'm going to start a separate thread about the why of the rewire and it's results. For the purposes of this thread, I'm enjoying the improved sound so much there may a hold on converting back to balanced mode.

Kidding I’ll try that next go ‘round

It pumps to the rpm of the platter. 33 at 33, 45 at 45, and slowly if I spin it by hand.

Bear in mind, that isn't happening now because I'm in single end mode.

@ejb14 

When you were spinning by hand, was the turntable power on?

No, when the power is on you have two choices, 33 or 45.

Powered items were amp and pre amp.

It’s kind of reproduced except mine needs a record or synthetic mat or both.

@byang12  I’m confused, could you restate that?

@holmz 

The wiring rundown is here.

Wiring for the tonearm to the preamp was as follows:

• Pin 1- no connection
• Pin 2- + positive
• Pin 3- - negative
• Shell ground- cable shield

Why was it wired like that? I agree the typical connection is pin 1 for the shield. See excerpt from the Elac PPA-2 Manual:

"Typically a balanced connection will be more immune to hum, so it would be the preferred connection. However, you must be careful that the shell of the XLR is not connected directly to the ground line within the XLR connector ( That sentence is a little confusing but I take it to mean that the shell of the XLR should not be connected to pin 1). They SHOULD be independent. The shell is the external shield of the cable and connector, and should be the CHASSIS connection. The ground wire within the XLR is twisted with the (+) and (-) balanced and should be the signal or tonearm ground. This can all be confirmed with an Ohm meter. "

The PPA-2 has two ground lugs, one for tone arm ground (labeled ground) and one for chassis ground (labeled chassis). Since there is no chassis ground on the GT2000, that lug remains unused. The tonearm ground is connected via the other ground lug.

The cable shield is NOT connected at the TT end, but is connected via XLR shell to the chassis ground.

 

@byang12 The pin 1 ground to tonearm is the only missing piece of the puzzle, however since the tonearm is already grounded to the phono preamp via the external ground wire, I felt that sending the tonearm ground down the left cable, the right cable and the external wire was not a great idea. My assumption at the time was that the tonearm ground lug was most likely connected at the same circuit point as the two pin 1 connections. 

We'll find out latter this week. 

Just to clarify one point, the TT is grounded to the preamp. The question being is it the correct point?

@nrenter I will be addressing the static issue as well, later this week.

That’s actually pretty funny 

I ended up with a snow day so I assembled two XLR to RCA adapters. I also wired a conductor attached to pin 1 in each XLR that exits at the connector base. Think XLR with an external ground wire. I made a junction for the two ground wires ending in a single wire.

So let’s dive in:

Woofer Pumping in balanced mode is present and unaffected by the presence of a pin 1 tonearm ground connection. I tried first with the XLR ground extension attached at the preamp tonearm ground lug along with the conventional tonearm ground wire and second with the XLR ground and tonearm ground attached to each other but not attached to the preamp tonearm ground lug. Neither arrangement made the slightest difference.

It would appear the pin1 theory is exploded, which is sad because the solution would have been as simple as a reconfigured cable set.

Next up, Static Electricity. I forget who (sorry) but it was suggested that wiping a record with a dryer sheet might affect the pumping. I observed the pumping with only the mat  to get a visual baseline, then applied the dryer sheet while the platter was spinning. The amplitude of the woofer excursions diminished visibly while I was wiping the mat, I’d say by 80 to 90 percent.

It would appear that the correct answer is, levels of static electricity not enough to arc but enough to influence the Hana ML while operating in balanced mode.

@ejb14 

nope- single end doesn’t do it at all under any circumstance 

@holmz 

This makes zero sense to me…

Agreed

The cart is generally a thing that generates a current, and the electrical field would seem to be difficult to get into a twisted set of differential wires.

And to get enough charge on the LP to merry-go-round in a pile of electrons, and generate a magnetic field, would be difficult.

And to do it with Every LP you tried? 
 

Yes
 

And even a just with a mat alone?

Yes

And never without a mat or LP?

Never, no movement at all

I think I am back to the @lewm idea of oscillation in the phono stage. That would either need some different loading, or to block the low freq with a high pass capacitor in-line.

The PPA-2 has an 18hz Hi Pass filter which has been engaged for every experiment . It apparently does have any effect on a signal that operates as a sloping sine wave in the cycles per minute domain. I say that as a guess.

@noromance I also used an AQ anti static brush while touching the tonearm.

@bato65 I just moved into this house so it’s one thing at a time. If I were to add a central humidifier I would lose the experience of dry cracked skin, sinus trouble and static electricity discharges that leave scorch marks on my dog.

 

 

@ejb14

The cable set is not a coaxial design.

The cables are the same in both RCA and XLR configurations. The cable itself is a star quad core with double bare copper shielding.

With RCA attached, the positive signal is using, say the 12 and 6 o’clock wires. The negative signal is using the 3 and 9 o’clock wires. The shield floats at the TT end and is joined to the negative wires at the RCA collar joint. The positive is joined at the pin.

In XLR configuration, positive attaches to Pin 2, negative to Pin 3, Pin 1 is vacant and the shield is attached to the shell. The shield is floated at the TT end.

The tonearm ground handled by the external ground wire in both cases.

 

 

It’s static. I converted back to balanced operation and wet cleaned a few LP’s. Problem gone. I have an Ionizing fan on order and we’ll see how that works.

I think the reason the rumble filter doesn’t stop it is that it’s DC with a slow rise time. The o-scope looks hilarious.

@lewm I don't know why you feel compelled to "correct" me.

DC will move and hold a driver. 

Example:

 

 

I’m still trying to wrap my head around this

DC into your woofer might burn up the voice coil but won’t move the diaphragm.

It’s not just this or just one board contributor. I find a subset of people in the Analog section of the board who are terse, unhelpful and impolite if not outright rude and insulting. What could be more unhelpful than to present, as a fact, something that simply false. There are other sections of this forum that are genuinely helpful.

I don’t know about anyone else but I feel like I stuck my hand in a bear trap by posting here. I saw something weird and shared it. I thought maybe there was a quick explanation (also, it was kind of funny). The act of posting doesn’t automatically mean I’m fair game for anyone’s ego trip. It also doesn’t mean I’m an ignorant newbie to be kicked around. For that matter neither is anyone else.

I pity the kid who is fighting with their first turntable and asks a question here. Approaching others with a little kindness and empathy as well as minding one’s manners would go a long way to improving this section of the forum. Fact checking before posting should be a no brainer.

 

Would you like a lollipop to make you feel better?
 

My point

The problem isn't solved really. That woofer pumping should not occur to that extent. I believe there is a problem with the ELAC PPA-2 balanced input. Both single end inputs function fine. I'll be looking into it this weekend. I bought to unit on US Audiomart so no warranty for me.