@mrdecibel. MR D. I feel that power cables do indeed make a difference I SQ. It would be difficult for me to believe interconnects make a difference after burn in and not believe the same thing about a power csble. Unless you suggest otherwise. The components power supply is exteeemly important to SQ so it would make sense that what goes into it matters. I’m sure there are others on this forum with more knowledge in this subject than me but that’s my $0.2
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@mkgus haha. Actually not sure why I’m laughing because I actually thought about that and I wondered why no one has gone to those lengths to prove/disprove if anything physical actually does happen with cables after a long time use (at least I have not found that published anyplace yet). Perhaps that much research from the scientific community either A. Thinks its to expensive to invest the time and effort on the subject, B. Cable manufactures don’t want to because they might be afraid of the results. Even if they can prove a physical change happens to a cable or its dielectric during “burn in” then you would have to prove that change directly affects SQ, or C It’s just not that important of a thing to prove from the scientific communites point of view. Could be a little of all 3 among other things I guess. At any rate. In my case I can actually say there was a difference. What changed or how it changed, or if that change reverses or gets worst even is a possibility. After all according to MA after 50 hours of burn in the cable is supposed to get worst before it gets better. I mean it’s entirely possible that cables get better then worst then better then worst again during their life cycle. If it’s true at 50 hours it does beg the question. What’s so special about 50 hours?? What happens at 600 hours?? Does a cable have an end of life in regards to SQ? Shelf life? Like I said in my conclusion more questions than before. It’s an interesting subject but at this point for me anyway I’m just going to enjoy the system how it sounds now and enjoy the music. It is fun to talk about tho. |
Good hypothesis. Sounds reasonable to me. |
Elizebeth I think I would also agree that its the insulation that’s changing and not the actual wire. I would think In the same way a capacitor forms after use. The dielectric gets charged and the cable becomes a capacitor to a certain degree. Right? |
All good questions. Above my pay grade but it will be intersting to hear what others say. |
Same thing Geoff said. I just wonder if there is enough current in an IC to actually cause this to happen. |
@stevecham Thanks for the input Steve. much appreciated. |
LOL. Ok I hear you. MA suggests direction of signal down their cables. Where its shielding or for whatever reason. They recommomend connecting their cables a certain way (directionally) in regards to single flow. I suspect they do that for a reason. I also suspect that reason has something to do with sound quality. So I was curious IF you reverse the connection would it have an impact on sound quality.
"Why would MA suggest reversing the cables?" I assume that he thought maybe it would improve the way the cable sounded since in our conversation I did not feel that the cable sounded that good from the start. |
@geoffkait Well that's a good question actually. I don't know for sure. I only know what the manufacture says. MA along with other manufactures sell "directional cables" some indicate the direction with an arrow on the connector, MA indicates the direction with a label placed on the cable. The label end connects to the destination (not the source side). Are you saying that cables are not directional?? Not disagreeing with you just want to make sure I understand the point you're making. |
@geoffkait Dude Im just telling you what the man told me. Why do we need to argue about that??? Just forget it. |
Im just going to delete the post. Sorry I asked the question. |
@michaellent Well 1st im happy your amused. It should be entertaining but at the same time I think its healthy to have the debate as there are soooo many things that are simply marketing with a lot of this stuff. Getting to the truth if possible with something like this topic is the objective. Its good to get different opinions as long as it's done respectfully. Since I have started this conversation I have been called a 12 year old, a fool, crazy, etc... but I have YET to be disrespectful to anyone unless they were disrespectful to me.. So while Im not exactly sure what amuses you so about this conversation, but maybe just maybe you have read something that makes some sense to you.
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@dorkwad oh very cool. So nothing blew up hu lol... thats great. This will indeed be my next experiment for sure. Looking forward to hearing the results. Thanks to Doug for taking one for the team and being brave enough to try it. Did not really want to use the phrase guinea pig. :) |
Actually that post was directed at MrD. |
@dorkwad yep I know who he is. That comment was made because it was my understanding that he had not tested from pre amp to power amp. I was concerned about doing harm to my power amp making that type of connection. So by him testing it thus taking one for the team. Yep I know who he is. Sorry for the confusion. |
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Oh speaking of Audioquest. Decided to return the MA csble. Picked up a Audioquest Water csble for this application. |
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Yeah he kinda rambles a bit but he makes the point that companies like Audioquest must be doing something right to remain in business as long as they have. If their products were all snake oil it would be hard to continue fooling that many people in such a nightly competitive business. AQ was among the names he threw out there. I guess one could argue that but his words not mine. |
Love his point about the large cable companies. Makes perfect sense to me.
Happy New Year everyone. |
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Can’t type on this phone. Excuse the typos.
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@aberyclark I hear you. I did not mention this because it will just take us back to where we started but may as well Bring it up.
When I pulled the cable off the device I was using for the burn in and I immediately installed it in my reference system and did the comparison. The cable did improve. There is no question about it. However I did not listen again for about a week. Xmas, family, work etc. I listened again for the first time again on Xmas eve. Once again I immediately noticed that the cable sounded flat again. So not sure if this was because the cable lost some of its zing after sitting un-used for a period or what. Anyway. I called Morrow and I am returning the cable. In order for them to take the cable back I have to write up a summary of why and explain that I followed their burn In process which really made me A little upset to be honest. What if I did not have a way to expidite the burn in process. There is no way I could have put 400 hours under normal use before the 60 day return policy. Also I thought the return policy was supposed to be no questions asked. So that’s where it stands. It’s going back. Picked up a Audioquest Water cable. Sounds amazing out of the box and it should get better with time.
The moral of the story is: if you buy it and you don’t like it day one. Move on to the next thing. However I did learn a lot as a result of all this for sure. |
@elizabeth
"Amazing that Morrow would try to stonewall your returning the cord. That is terrible. I hope everyone reads that and realizes that Morrow are not keeping their 'word'. I would use harsher language but I do not want to have my post deleted for profanity. Let us know if they attempt to keep your money!"
I don't think they will try to keep my money. The conversation was not confrontational in any way I had with them. I was just a little taken back that me writing up a reason why I need to return it was requested. Also I was surprised that I was asked to be forthcoming that I actually tried to burn in the cable prior to returning it. However I did not get the impression that there would be a delay in returning my money. I don't want to give that impression at all to a wide audience. Now, if that does happen we will have a problem, but I have faith that they are not in the practice of doing something like that. Also they are allowing me to keep the ground wire I ordered with the cables. Maybe they just want feedback on why the cable did not work out. |
"It was a nice experience, not at all like what @barnettk went through."
Im not saying I had a bad experience to be fair to Morrow Audio. I think they believe in their product and want to avoid people from pre-maturely returning their product prior to doing some burn in on the cable thats all. They will be up front with you and tell you that a lot of people do return them when they first get them without allowing them to mature a bit because they don’t sound that good out of the box. So they give you 60 days to at least get some burn in on the product, and they would like for you to at least give them a chance. At least thats how I took it. Now for the return policy..they did not say "you can’t return them unless....." The guy just asked me to write a note stating why and that I did at least follow the recommendation of attempting to put some time on them before simply returning them. Now you can take that a couple of ways I guess but I kind of get what they are saying. They are in business to make money, and they believe that most people after giving their product a chance will like them. Now with that said.. I called MA to request the return and you do not have to do that. You can simply go to the return link on their page and fill out the return request and simply send the cable back. I chose to call them thinking I needed to setup the return that way. I felt it was the thing to do since I had spoken to Mike Morrow personally, and I wanted to give the feedback verbaly. I guess thats just how I do business. I just don’t want anyone saying "oh Barnettk had a bad experience with MA" because thats not the case. I was however taken back a bit when asked tp provide all this information about why. |
@aberyclark
"I'm sure it gets worse as you go up the food chain. Imagine trying to return $4,000 cables and the pushback you'll get?
Oh man I bet your correct. You know someone made a good point a couple bubbles above that said (and Im paraphrasing here) "If cables were better broken in then why would broken in cables not be worth more money" You know after I thought about that it made perfect sense to me since ALL these cable manufactures specifically state that their cable will not sound its best until after x number of hours of burn in. Why not sell the cables already burned in?? Time, effort, cost, or setup could be reasons I suspect. When I called Morrow I told them "well whoever you sell this cable to next it will already have a full 400+ hours on it" I kinda expected him to think that was a positive but I got zero reaction from that comment.. interesting. However that means nothing to him because thats just me saying I did the burn in with no proof that they can actually backup to the next customer so they are kinda stuck. Being a small business selling anything to do with home audio has to be challenging. Returns have to be killers, but thats the business. I really did give it my all to keep the cable because I value these businesses. The more there are of them the better for us right.
"Now, I believe some local retailers will allow you to try a component and or cables with a deposit."
IMO the thing to do is to have inventory of cables you can use just for demos. After the demo is over that cable has to be returned, and if you like it then you are sent a new cable. This way you don't need to have a 60 day return policy and customers can listen to the cable after its matured fully to determine if it will work out in their system. To me that solves the problem.
Overall, I think this thread is very informative. I'm glad the process took place"
Well thats because of all the good people who participated in the conversation. I loved that everyone for the most part had good constructive input. These forums are very important I agree.
Happy New year!
-Keith
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@2010challengeran
What a horrible experience. Im sorry you had to go through that. Good for you for returning it, and your absolutely correct about how you handled it. I wonder if that company is still in business. These companies cannot afford to be that arrogant. Thats why I love forums like these because we have to help each other stay informed on situations just like the one you had. Just imagine if you had been able to tell that story to a large audience like this for HAM users. HAM users are typically a tight nit group of folks. Thanks for sharing. Happy New Year my friend
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@prof
you know when I first read your post on my cell I have to say I was a little taken back. Honestly I considered the possibility that you were actually trying to insult me on an intelligent level. However after being able to sit down and actually read it without distraction I get what your saying and its not insulting at all. As a matter of fact I consider it pretty reasonable. I try not to reply to something like this out of emotion and actually try to understand what a person is saying and be as opened minded about it as I can. All good points you make and I am thinking your speaking more in general than directionally. So the only part of your comment I will speak to is:
"But if your goal is to truly determine if you have in your hands sound evidence for cable burn in, with a mind to skepticism questioning, THEN you should realize the inherent faults in your current evaluating method for doing so."
When I composed the first thread of the post my goal was to see if cable burn in had ANY effect on SQ of a IC. However I admit I was venting a bit on the fact that a company sells you a product with a set return period and then tells you that in order to fully achieve that products capabilities it will take one a year or so (2 years in maybe in my case) to fully benefit from that product , which will then take you outside the return period. Now taking into account that before this I did not believe that cable burn in was a real thing in the first place. Not being cynical, or even doubtful at all. I simply did not believe that it would make any difference. That belief was born out of pure ignorance honestly speaking because prior to this experiemnt I will admit that I did not understand fully the function of the various components that make up an audio cable. I am man enough to admit that. So my thinking on the matter from the start was a based on OPINION, not doubt or cynisism and I took the same side as others who don't believe burn in matters (kind of like follow the leader) without doing the proper research and experimentation on my own. So IMO this is pure skepticism, and nothing dark, or deeper about it. Period. Once I started working through this is when the education process started for me.
So back to your comment on my evaluation of the results of my test. I am very in tune with how my system sounds regardless of what you or anyone else may thing I know when I hear something different in regards to how my system sounds. I did not need to do a blind test because it was just really not that close. The cable did sound better post burn in, simple as that. I tried to be as transparent, and honest as I could be with this. Do you really think that I would put myself out there like that and say this whole cable burn in is BS and ridiculous, go through all this to only come back and say I was wrong?? The burn in period did improve the cables performance. I admitted that. Im also admitting that after allowing the cable to sit unused for another period of time that the cable lost some of its SQ. I don't think its a bad product. I think it's more that this particular cable is just not a good fit for my particular setup. I am deciding the return it simply for those reasons. Thats no knock on MA. I think I was very careful to not bash MA in any way (just in case thats what you meant by "the power in our bias"). Or. Maybe you mean that the power of or bias can and will influence our percived outcomes. To that I say "Im not buying it" in this case. So while I agree with some of what your saying I disagree that I could not properly come to my conclusions using the method of evaluating this experiement. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. Thanks for the constructive criticism. I really appreciate it.. honestly not being sarcastic.
-Keith
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@prof you make a good point. I am away from home but I do want to address your comment when I get back to my laptop. Don’t even want to try on this cell phone. But good point. |
@geoffkait
"Geez, these demands for cable manufacturers to burn their cables in are a little bit late. Throbbing Gristle TG Audio burned in their speaker cables, interconnects and power cords for 30 days prior to shipping and shipped everything in anti static bags. Too bad more folks don’t follow the right sheep 🐑. What’s next, demands for fuse manufacturers to burn their fuses in prior to shipping? Are speaker manufacturers now supposed to burn in their speakers? And what about amplifier designers? And what of CD players? Are these the same manufacturers who display brand new equipment at CES? Have they not heard of burn in? OMG! Saints preserve us! Maybe the best thing to do in these stressful angst filled times is take the bull by the horns and do whatever you think needs to be done, and not wait for the industry to catch up to audiophiles. "
Good point and I agree. What is the answer. i think it boils down to what a person is willing to accept when they purchase a piece of gear. I have tube gear that I knew would not sound its best until a certain amount of time passed with use. I accepted that because I knew I would have that equipment for years to come. Even some of my SS gear. I accept that. This will be different from person to person. Some people are more patient with certain pieces of gear the other pieces of gear I think. At least thats how I think about it anyway. A cable... come on.. Im not waiting no two years for it to sound good. So with cables I am taking the low road, and simply returning it if it does not sound satisfactory out of the box.. But hey thats just me. You make a good point tho about where is the line. I bet if you ask 100 people you will get at least 75 different answers.
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@prof
Oh and by the way. To be fair and to your point. Im going to have my Son blind fold me and try to fool me with his cable swap to see if "I" can actually hear the difference between the two cables. How about that? Then i'm going to tell you what I already know :) |
@prof
Intersting. Ok well now you have me curious. Not doubtful :) but curious. So early on in the post I had made arrangements for 3 others to participate in this. My wife who does not care one way or the other. She only cares about "how much did you pay for that" and will it work in our homes decor. My Youngest Son who is in college and also in the music business, an audiophile friend of mine who I can explain what im listening for, then allow him to make his own judgement, and Me. So now that you have planted that seed I think its only fair to complete the comparison at least to that level. I mean the truth is what we seek right? Plus I have not returned the cable yet, and I still have the recording I made. Its a little crude of an A/B test but I think it will suffice. This has been going on for a month so what the heck. I know i'm right but now that you said what you said I probably will have regrets and be up at night thinking about it :)
See we need people like you to call these things out and challenge us to be thourough regardless of what we think we know. I really do mean that. I guess we can now add stubborn to skeptical, hardheaded, and inpatient. darn it. It seems im learning more about myself than this freaking audio cable. I will report back and post the outcome in the next few days. I am going to put the cable back on the "burn in" device I came up with for a day and by weekends end I will give the short version of the results. I promise it will be short this time.
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@geoffkait LOL yup to a certain degree. Seriously not about everything actually. Maybe I should be more open minded because a lot of the things Im skeptical about age just things that done make a lot of common sense but hey Im learning, and opening up I guess. Don't you think so??
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@prof
"Oh jeeze, I don’t mean to cause you any more work Keith!"
To late... you have gone and done it now :) JK
I really don't mind. Just when I thought I had this all figured out up pops Prof.
Ok so I do plan to employ a blind fold.. check
The randomness of the swap will not be oblivious to me. I will wear some ear plugs or something during the swap.. Check
I should not say my wife has no skin in the game. We have been married for 22 years and she is often my test person for lots of stuff so she actually has a pretty good ear, and does care.
My Son is also going to do fine. Keep in mind the overall goal of the test. Which is to see if cable burn in makes any difference in SQ. We are also going to see if the cable is able to either out perform the cable I have now or at least equal it. Now in regards to the pre/post burn in test I only have one sample of a recording pre-burn-in so I am a little limited in that regard but I have some other ideas. If the cable comes up to at least the same SQ as the cable I have the compare between the two will reveal that. it will also be proof that the cable improved with burn-in. You will have to trust me on the fact that the cable sounded profoundly different (worst) than my existing cable pre-burn in. It was not even close. However I will also allow my participants to listen to that for them selves as well. No sure this will be fair because the only way to do that is to play the tape and have them compare to the actual record and that won't be fair because the record will definitely sound better, but we will see if we can make any judgment but I think that will be very subjective.
We will not communicate during the test.. Check.
Coin flip I will suggest that but I think they will come up with something on their own as well but I will keep that in mind. I want them to feel that their method makes sense to them.
So ok the ground work is laid. I think we have as good as a test method we can come up with under the circumstances. I wish you would have spoke up early in the post as i'm sure we could have come up with other ways to do the A/B, but I thought using my reel to reel was as accurate I could get to do a fair comparison.
Good stuff. So the cable is cooking now again only because its been sitting for a few days. I plan to do the comparison on Sunday. Everyone is ready to rock and roll (no pun)
remember everyone this is in no way going to be perfect. I realize that but I do think we can at least draw some real conclusions. Regardless of what happens the cable is being returned because I already know that it does not best what I currently have. Even if no one can tell the difference its "no difference" in that regard and not worth the investment to have no obvious improvement.
If anyone else has any ideas they want to throw out, this is the time to do it. After this the matter of cable burn in will be closed...for me anyway.
-Keith |
@aberyclark
"I think cd’s sound better after 10-20 plays"
Never heard that before. I have however heard of people doing some kooky stuff like putting green rings around the edge of the cd to make it sound better. I have some serious doubts about that, but hey I have been wrong before so... |
Wait I just re-read his post. He did not say he bought into the idea of green rings. He said: "If you think putting little green rings around the edge of CDs is kind of kooky you would probably think the things I do routinely verges on satanism."
I would still be interested in hearing some of these things. We have time while this cable burns a little longer.
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@geoffkait Ok I tell you what. To be fair Sell it to me. Putting green rings around CDs that is. I am going to try and be open minded just to show you :) |
@aberyclark.
Yep your right. We are easy targets in this hobby for sure. However if you have the money and if it makes you hear what you want to hear I say go for it. Not going to judge. I do feel that a lot of people in this hobby replace/add things to improve their system in the wrong order. I am no different. I have learned however it’s the room that’s the most important. Those of us who have the luxury of a dedicated room can really do some fantastic things to improve SQ. Those who don’t you just have to do the best you can, but room should be the first improvement. Once you get the room right all else falls in line. I had to learn that the hard way and thousands of dollars later. |
@geoffkait
thsts a good explanation at least. Most people just say it’s magic. We will see if anyone else adds to it. So reducing read errors and adding weight to the outer edge does that make the music sound better? I’m seriously asking because I do t know. If you say yes you know what I’m going to do right?? |
@elizabeth.
Wow. Now that is a process and I thought I was meticulous before I play a record. I always just figured since there is no physical contact happening with the laser that it would not be as sensitive to small amounts of dust. My CDs dont look dirty to the eye so I just live and let live. Dont play CDs that much.. Never have but I do have a collection. Now your making me think I need to at least wipe them off lol. |
So do you do this to your CDs? |
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Ha. I just ran across a YouTube video where Paul from PS Audio is talking about this very topic. He believes it works but did not know why, or why the color Green was needed. |
@aberyclark
dude you must be reading my mind. |
So does a CD get read from the edge to the center or from the center to the edge (opposite of how a stylus tracks a record)? |
@prof
Today is the day. Maybe we can finally put this to rest. |
@prof
"And if asked I detail the method of evaluation for inspection. Someone else should be wary of just accepting my results - I could be fibbing, or exaggerating, or I could have honestly screwed up somewhere in the method. That’s why replicable results by other parties have a place in empirical research. The same would go for your results."
you are 100% correct. People don't know me from Adams house cat.. lol so asking people to trust that im being honest is a stretch to say the least. First and foremost Im really doing this for "me" however if it sheds any light at all on the subject for those who are on the fence at least its one more thing that they can refer to and consider. Maybe others will perform the same types of test such as yourself and then we can start to build a concensus on some of these highly debated subjects. Now its up to you to trust in the fact that I did the test honestly (which I am) but I know trust is hard to come by :) I get it and I would not be insulted at all if someone called BS.. I tried to set my expectations that would happen before I started this post. I realize how strongly some feel about these things. |
@boxer12
“I've been using the green magic marker on the outer edge of cd's since the 90's. It's a worthwhile sound quality tweek.”
👍🏼 |
