Skeptic or just plain hard headed
ieales240 posts12-07-2018 1:31pm Cables can be overcookedThere are many MEASUREABLE phenomena which account for system changes. Why ignore them and ascribe to cooking? >>>>>OK, Mr. Smarty Pants. Name one. Betcha can’t. Besides, everybody knows you can eliminate other phenomena, whatever they might be, by thorough and careful testing. Hel-loo! If you couldn’t we would never get anywhere. |
This is one of those sticky subjects where it’s not really that there is no AGREEMENT about cable burn in but really more of a whack a mole game type of subject where you have those WITH experience with cable burn in and those who do not, but who engage in the time honored game of Whack a Mole. And there are also those who might be curious. The subject of burn in not new and this is not the first rodeo for the more advanced audiophiles on this thread. Not to diminish measurements, which can certainly have their place. Good luck with that. In any case, it’s hard to generalize test results of just about any audio related thing. It’s a tough nut to swallow. |
The main problem with getting a 100% improvement to the sound is being able to translate what you think you’re hearing into percentages. But if you can measure 3 dB higher dynamic range or 3 dB higher SNR at the listening position would that satisfy you? I suspect the reason for most of the nervous Nellies and skeptism is the inability to get oneself up out of the noise floor. |
ieales235 posts12-06-2018 2:21pm There is a potential issue with “auditioning” cables or anything before the burn in period is complete, assuming that the cable is ever completely burned in. That issue is that the burn in process can sometimes be a non linear one, with up and down swings in performance. Thus, when someone takes a peek prematurely he might be disappointed in the sound. But I digress.@geoffkait ROTFLMFAO! Systems change for well known and enumerated phenomena, ignored by the fuse, direction and burn-in proponents. If my system sounds better after recommend N hours of cable burn-in but worse due to other ignored factors after 2N hours of use, then what? Cable burn in is fraud. >>>>>You seem mighty sure of yourself. But can you prove it? Some folks are just as positive there was no holocaust. This is probably a case of whatever ieales insists, it’s best to do the opposite. |
There is a potential issue with “auditioning” cables or anything before the burn in period is complete, assuming that the cable is ever completely burned in. That issue is that the burn in process can sometimes be a non linear one, with up and down swings in performance. Thus, when someone takes a peek prematurely he might be disappointed in the sound. But I digress. |
barnettk OP88 posts12-06-2018 11:25am@geoffkait in regards to what? In regards to test results. The evidence levels of test results. Example: negative results for a single test would be level 1 - not convincing at all. |
Can anyone answer the question I posed before - why do Morrow Cables require more burn in time than other cables? Or is it that other cable companies underestimate burn in time or burn in time is not specified? Or maybe MA overestimates burn in time? MA is in line with Duelund capacitors and wire if I’m not mistaken. By the way I’m pretty sure I’ve never actually checked anything for burn in in terms of whether it’s real or not or how long it takes. At least not in the last 25 years. Certainly no blind tests. Is that wrong? |
Ah, the relentless pursuit by the blind test fanatics. No matter what happens, or how thorough, there’s always the next move. “You didn’t do the test properly,” “There were not enough trials,” or whatever. It never stops. Been there done that. Hey, no offense. I was pursued by the most relentless, ruthless blind tester of them all. He was like a Gila monster! Prof is a teddy bear by comparison. |
I’ve oft mentioned this on similar threads - that it would be exceedingly difficult to determine the sole effects of burn-in of cables or any other audio thing, speakers perhaps especially, since there are simply too many variables that affect the sound, even day to day and week to week. Or to attribute all changes to burn in. Variables include those that aren’t normally considered or aren’t deemed very important. I am quite sure we don’t know all the variables that affect sound quality. If someone says, oh, the sound was better in such and such ways after two weeks does that mean he’s done nothing whatsoever to his system in all that time, just waited around for burn in changes to occur? You mean he just sits there and watches the paint on the wall peel? Who keeps careful logs? Answer at 11. |
Lizzie, actually this is what you said, elizabeth5,902 posts12-02-2018 2:52pmBryston's James Tanner says, and PS Audio's Paul McGowan burn in the components ONLY so they don't break for the customer in the first few days. PERIOD |
barnettk OP63 posts12-03-2018 11:58pmI hear you. I am not just skeptical I don’t believe it at all. However it’s somethibg about the sencarity of MA that made me take pause and said to myself let’s just see so I can finally draw a line in the sand in regards to the subject. >>>>>Uh, I’m pretty sure that’s the definition of hard headed. Mystery solved! 😃 |
TG Audio, I.e., Bob Crump, who knew a little bit about sound and whose cables and power cords were among the very best extant, always burned in his cables and cords for 30 days prior to shipping. At that point in time he used the MOBIE, Maximum Overdrive Burn-in Equipment, which I also had back then. This burn in business is not anything new, for heaven’s sake. There’s no substitute for knowledge. Knowledge is what’s left after you subtract out all that stuff you learned in school. |
All cables require break in to sound their best. The only real debate is how long break in should be and what the best means of break in are. If you’re not really into the whole sound quality thing I wouldn’t sweat it too much. But at the big shows in the big important systems one just might find some can,e cooking going on all day and night before the show opens. At least if they’re smart. |
Uh, I’m pretty sure there is a break-in LP for analog systems. If there isn’t there should be. Whoa! Hold the presses! This just in! I guess the lesson here is NEVER SAY NEVER. I trust no one will accuse me of shooting fish in a barrel. 🐟 🐟 🐟
A pickup system requires a certain break-in period to achieve the best reproduction characteristics. This settling time depends on the specific pickup - from construction and from the sampled signals during this time. Usually, this break-in period for a phono cartridge with a music signal is about 40 to 100 hours. This settling time can be shortened significantly, however, when pink noise is used as a signal in an endless groove. To this end, the Clearaudio Cartridge Break-In Record provides 6 endless grooves with a pink noise signal (tracks 5,6,7,9,10 and 11). In addition, 240 seconds are added Pink noise signals for measurements of the entire playback system available (Track 14). To test the frequency response of a pickup is a moving (sweep) sine test signal from 20 Hz to 20 kHz (Track 3). The total noise of the playback system can be tested with an empty record without signal "silence" (Track 4 and 13) (duration 300 seconds). Optimization of the anti-skating force adjustment allow Tracks 8 and 12 Both channels include a 316 Hz sine wave signal with a continuously changing phase difference from 0 to 360 grad on the diamond sample movement is repeated this way, changes of horizontal to vertical movement. The amplitude increases from -22 dB to + 8 dB. |
There are at least a few steps for proper cable care and feeding, burn-in is just one of them. E.g., cryogenic treatment - even if already done in-house - is recommended, and if not done in-house then highly recommended. Then there’s contact enhancers for all cable contacts. And of course, determine proper direction for the cables. Demagnetizing and ionizing cables periodically are de rigeur for any serious audiophile. There are other steps, too, but most likely beyond scope. |
When using the XLO Test CD burn-in track, it is suggested that track be played continuously for two weeks, but that improvements should be audible after a day or two, which I think is true. The obvious advantage of using a burn-in track is that everything in the entire system gets burned in, not only the cables. So, is anything ever 100% broken in? That is a philosophical question, however all evidence points to NO. So how many hours in two weeks for those who don’t have a calculator handy? 336. |
