Skeptic or just plain hard headed

@geoffkait LMAO yep

@geoffkait oh ok. Gotcha. Well it might be the first, but I anticipate further confirming Douglas’s findings  in regards to cables anyway. 

@viridian Sounds reasonable to me. However (I know I am going to catch it for this) Ones interpretation does matter. for example if I asked you if your system is turned on and playing in your room and no one is there to listen is it producing sound? (same as the ole if a tree falls in the woods question)

@czarivey not hardly unless you speed up the process like I’m doing. It’s no way I could put 400 hours of play on a phono cable in 60 days with normal play. 

@geoffkait in regards to what?

@dorkwad hi Bob. Intersting handle lol. I am going to try to finish Doug’s article today. It’s an interesting concept but I have to admit I am a little Leary to try solutions on my system that come with warnings. If I do decide to try it, it would be on a custom made tube amp I have that is 100% point to point wired, and not my SS McIntosh gear.  This amp is an integrated amp with volume control and 1 input. However I do have it connected to a passive pre amp that only provides line level connectivity for other components. I already have the AQ splitters and I would do it with cables I already own for the test. I would think if it produces an improvement that it will work with any two cables.  If I do I will create a separate post with the results as not to take this thread to far off topic. I need to do a little more research first tho. I know someone I can run this by to see what they think about the idea. Thanks for sharing. 

actually I am going to do a quick compare to the AQ cable today to see if its even catching up so. I can also apply that scale to that test to keep it short.

Folks let me just make this clear. This test is to see if cable burn in has ANY effect on cables. I'm not trying to put a percentage on it or a value to it... Only thing I am trying to do is determine if it has any effect from a sonic perspective. I think that is all that is necessary to determine if its valid so I hope your not expecting me to quantify this.

A 0.005% change hu... man you must have some damn good hearing.

@geoffkait 

Ah. Ok I like that. I am also putting some other criteria to go with it when I do the comparison to the AQ cable but for the primary question of does it sound different  pre/post burn in. I will use that scale. Actually if I hear no difference or If the difference very small I will not even waste time comparing it to the AQ cable. Thanks. 

200 hour test has begun. The recordings I’m listening to are:

Charles Lloyd and the Marvels featuring Lucinda Williams-vocal on the Blue Note label
Donald Fagen - The Nightfly 45 RPM MoFi edition. Recorded from the original master. 
Cassandra Wilson - Blue Moon Daughter 180 gram audiophile version

i am very familiar with all 3 of these records. 

This is a premature test since the cables are only at 200 hours but I would like to see how they strike me since first hearing my system with them new which was un-remarkable.

 My system has been warmed up and I have played about 3 records which is approximately the same amount of time when I first installed the cables last Sat. Trying to make things as close to when I first installed them as possible. Other than the cold medicine I was taking. Sorry not reproducing that 😁

Obviously it will take me some time to do this so I will report back when I’m done

Oh 💩. . Man I can’t wait to tell y’all this. Still got to listen to one more song. Very I tersting 

@geoffkait 

i am not trying to make that much of a profound statement. Not yet anyway. Maybe IF and it’s a big if there is a difference that peaks my interest to venture down that path sure. For now let’s just see if there is any difference at all, then we can discuss criteria around how to measure it. I mean after all let’s be honest what sounds good is going to be subjective unless like you said we can agree on certain attributes that can be measured such as amplitude, etc. However whether it “sounds better” will be up to me. No one can qualify that but me in this case on my system. Unless you want to come to GA when I do the test lol. This is why the topic is so controversial. What sounds good to one may not sound go to another. I think I am only going to take this to if there is any difference from burn in on a cable. We will be arguing the subjective stuff forever. 

Im warming up the system now to do the first listening test to see if I can make any conclusions after the first 200 hours. 

@ivan_nosnibor 

Ivan my man that was long 😁. I skimmed through it and get what your saying. I will read it in the morning. It’s time to show the wife a little love  for the rest of the day as I have been playing with this since I got off work. I will read it tho. 

@dorkwad Bob. I do tend to agree. After burn in if the first 200 hours the cable did IMO show some signs of improvement. Still not enough to top the cable I have currently but indeed It did make a difference. I said early on that I am only looking for if it makes ANY difference. In this case I think it sounds better than it did, but I’m not blown away. I like your characterization of sounding better but still not changing it’s stripes. That is perfectly summing it up for me. 

So now that it did make a difference I want to see if it can get all the way there by the end of what MA says is the maturity state of 400 hours. (Their words not mine). Next Friday will be my next test. 

@taiye none taken. How about a fool that refuses to learn remains a fool. 

The method I’m using to burn it in is I have the cable connected between my little sonos connect and a sound bar playing  a Playlist from my Apple Music library on repeat. So it’s connectedd as a line level input between two devices that are using a higher voltage than the turntable cartridge. This should do the trick. Another 200 hours to go and it will be fully burned in according to the manufacturer. Thanks anyway. 

After last night I am now more interested than ever to see if I can find any other measurable things that I can detect from burning in this cable. Today I am going to take measurements of noise to see if that changes between 200 hours and 400 hours. Should be a simple thing to measure. Not sure how I can measure dynamic range. I considered measuring through put..that should be simple enough. I have spl measurements of when playing the music to compare to after the 400 hours. Is there anyone else that has good ideas around other things I can actually measure with test equipment?

@geoffkait what are you ranting about 😁😁

@arrowheadrss 

Amen

@geoffkait 

"Not to diminish measurements, which can certainly have their place. Good luck with that."

Agreed. Im just curious to see if the numbers change. should be interesting at least. Not going to try and tie that back to sound quality but I think I'm more curious about what happens to the geometry of the cable, and its sonic quality after its been used. Also I think I am going to drop the term "burn in" from my audiophile vocabulary. Not sure the term actually applies. I think I will adopt the phrase "with use"

I just took an online signal frequency hearing test with a decent pair of headphones. The results were shocking. I did the test at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-iCZElJ8m0. I did not hear the lower frequency until about 28 Hz. According to this I can't hear anything above 13.5 or so kHz. I just knew I could hear higher freq than that!, and I felt that I could hear below 25 Hz. So with my 57 year old ears I may not even be able to hear the nuances of the cables burned in or not lmao. Amazing. How well do YOU really think you can hear?? 

LOL. funny.. I have not heard someone call someone else 'Mr smarty pants" in ages. That is hilarious... I'm easily amused as you can see.

@geoffkait 

Good morning Sir! You say “had” what happened to it?  

@ivan_nosnibor oj for sure. I was just giving him a hard time. I think he knows that 😁

i do olan to carry on with what I’m doing.  Come to far to stop now. Plus it’s good conversation and that’s how you learn from one another. So far I think it’s been rather civil and not a lot of cat fighting which is what I was bracing for (not that, that’s what I want). Good group of folks just talking hifi. Not always going to agree. 

@geoffkait soooo your not using cables now?

@ieales LMFAO! Sorry could not help it.. ieales you are bad.. lol

Still doing some tests with this cable. May as well since I paid for them to ship it to me. Interesting reveal today. On my tube system I have the Turntable connected to the phono stage with a line level RCA cable; however on this particular TT it uses a ClearAudio virtuoso V2 Ebony wood MM (I LOVE this cartridge) . So I decided to try the PH3 in this application since this setup should really be using a lower capacitance cable being its MM. Tested with Rickie Lee Jones self titled LP. The impact was positive on this system. The decay was apparent especially on the bass guitar lead in on Night Train, and Rickie's singing style as she trails her voice off at the end of phrases which is why I selected this particular album to test with. Bass response was overall improved with good quality, deep and accurate. Voice timbre is where the cable shined however. The timbre of Rickie's voice was rather excellent. The AQ cable presented a much thinner Timbre to Rickies voice that the MA cable was able to overcome no doubt about it. Even my wife was able to tell the difference, and she loves Rickie Lee Jones! I mean these were profound differences to me. There is definitely in a improvement over my existing AQ cable in all respects. I AM NOT attributing this to burn in. In this case I think its more of an improvement because this cable may simply be better match for this gear. So maybe I have found a home for the MA cable after all. Still going to continue the burn in for the final test next Friday, but just thought I would offer up this bit of info for those interested. 

Well folks tomorrow will be 400+ hours

@oranfoster one other question. Have you ever damaged a record by leaving it in to long or having it set to high? 

@oranfoster Oran. Thank you for the information on the ultrasonic. I think Santa is going to have to bring one on over. I have been considering one like I said for some time. I currently use a spin clean, along with the record doctor vacuum machine. I also use Tergikleen solution  that seems to work really well. However it’s two machines that makes record cleaning a little laborious to say the least. However the results are acceptable. However I feel like I should be doing a better job at doing the task with a nicer machine. Not throwing shade in the spin clean or the record doctor vacuum because as I said together they do work well. Put it this way. It’s better than nothing. 

Your  correct about music reproduction being a complex blend of art and science. Absolutely agree. I really have to take a step back sometime with all this because you can easily get to caught up in the hobby side that you forget what it’s all about in the first place, which is enjoying the music. Maybe the two go hand in hand. 

Appreciate your input. Nice to meet you. 

Results:

For those who just want the short and sweet answer and to get on with their lives.  Burn-in of audio cables or at least this particular cable does make a difference in how that cable sounds in your system. If you want to know how much keep reading.

Going to try and keep this as short as possible, however I think its only fair to carefully go over my conclusion and my thoughts about this test of a highly debated subject between audio enthusiast that dates back decades. I guess it only makes sense that audio interconnects and speaker cable would be a marketable item for gear manufactures once they found out that we would pay enormous amounts of money on home audio gear. After all its the cables that connect all this expensive high quality equipment together in the first place right. Hence an argument was born about if a piece of copper wire, and dielectric wrapped in a nice pretty sheath really makes or breaks a system. A lot of us take what we consider a common sense approach, some take a more scientific approach, and most of us are caught someplace in the middle when it comes to the importance of audio cables in our systems. So the argument rages on between the haves and the have nots for whichever side of that fence you stand on. 

Let me start by saying this. Im not trying to change anyones mind, but I think now I am going to at least take a side. Prior to this experiment I was firmly on the side of while I felt that cables made a difference, I considered things like Cable burn in and such was just snake oil and burning in a cable would not make any difference in how that cable sounded from day 1.. after all its a cable for goodness sakes. Right... well maybe. 

For those that have not had time to read this whole post let me quickly summerize the goal of all this. I purchased a Morrow Audio PH3 phono cable as an upgrade.  I am currently using an Audioquest MacKenzie cable for this application. I had read a lot of reviews of the Morrow Audio product and people were just raving about them. So I decided to see what the hype is all about and maybe it would be a better solution for me over what I have now. Got the cable installed it and was not impressed initially at all. There was a profound difference in sound quality between the MA cable and the AQ cable. Called MA, and was told that the cable wouldn't deliver until it was fully burned in after 400 HOURS of use. I thought that was ridiculous, but decided to see for myself. So I rigged a way to pass an audio signal down the cable for 400+ hours. Prior to doing that I made a recording of a record I am very failure with to set up an A/B comparison after the burn in period and that 451 hours happened today. My goal was to try and determine if burn in of a audio interconnect made ANY difference at all. 

what did I do exactly: 

The source I used for the A/B comparison was Donald Fagen's The Night Fly MoFi special edition 45 RPM LP. This is an amazing sounding record and I am very very failure with the entire album. been listening to it since it was originally released back in 1982. So I recorded the first track I.G.Y to my reel to reel prior to connecting the cable for the burn in process. Oh by the way the cable came from MA with 48 hours of burn in from their factory because I purchased the burn-in service. 

Upon initially listing to the MA cable in my system compared to the Mackenzie it sounded flat and lifeless. Almost like the cable did not have a soul if that makes sense. The bass was muddy to me, and the sound stage was there but just messy.. not sure how else to describe it. 

After burn-in I rewound the tape about to the middle of the song and lined up the record as close as I could to where the tape was then recorded from there to the end of the song. Doing this I was able to splice in the MA cable performance post burn in. During playback as the tape played to the cross over point in the song I could hear a definite improvement. The first thing I noticed was a slight rise in amplitude, the dynamic range was improved, but the biggest difference was the sound stage. Fagen's voice re-aligned in the sound stage where it should be and the separation between his voice and the instruments was apparent. pre burn-in I was very aware of my Olympica IIIs in the room. As the reel  progressed to the burn-in section of the tape the speakers disappeared more into the room and the song just became more enjoyable to listen to overall. Now Im not saying that the sky opened up and the Angles began to sing in harmony while Gabriel's trumpet summoned me to heaven but I am saying that on this tape there is a noticeable difference between the pre and post burn-in of the MA cable. 

Conclusion of the tape test: 
Burn in made the cable sound better. Period

Now could it top my existing AQ cable which it clearly could not when I first received it. 
Moving from the recording I made on the reel to reel I could now really stretch the cables legs. First up I compared Cassandra Wilson's Blue Moon Daughter LP. On the track Strange Fruit. My AQ cable did not disappoint and sounded good as it usually does. However when I installed the PH3...wow what a difference 400 hours makes. Just a side note. If you really want to see if your system can create a realistic sound stage and if you want to see if your system can reproduce a recording the way it's meant to be heard for you jazz fans this is a MUST have recording. Its recorded on the Blue Note label and its pressing quality is rather amazing. I selected this record because properly reproducing a female vocalist IMO is one of the hardest things for most systems to do. The MA cable really did a fantastic job of separating Cassandr's vocal  from the Bass violin and other instruments on the record. The speakers TOTALLY disappeared into the room to the point that I actually felt that she and her band were in my listening room. The sound stage was perfect, and I do mean perfect. On this particular song the AQ cable made her vocal and the Bass violin almost on top of each other. I could clearly determine where each instrument was on the stage.. this was to me a revelation as I have not heard this record like this previously in my listening area. Im trying not to sound to well "over the top" but I guess you had to be here. For this recording the MA cable BLEW the AQ cable away no doubt about it. 

I continued to play various LPs John Klemmer's Finesse, and rounded it out with Pink Floyd The wall  which IMO is an amazing piece of Rock and Roll. On Klemmer the Tenor Sax was deep with accurate timbre, Floyd's antics were spot on. Both Cables handled the other music I listened to admirably but I have to give the edge still to the MA cable.Then I put on Wagner Walkure, and that is when the majic happened. The symphony was incredible followed by Mahler Symphony No 3 also incredible. Again both cables did a good job but the edge again has to go to the MA cable. 

Wait was that an angle I just heard, and it sounded like I heard a faint trumpet in the distance.. must be hearing things.. 


Conclusion to my conclusion: 

The MA cable is a keeper now that its burned in.  I am considering buying another cable for my tube system, but I am going to go with one that does not need this much care to settle in as I am just not that patient. I mean 400 hours under normal listening conditions would just simply be way way to long. So while I do like how it sounds now.. prob won't go down that path again. 

Did the MA cable make a noticeable difference after 400 hours of burn in YES it did. If you don't believe  it...get you one and put 400 hours on it and see for yourself. Could I have heard the difference with 400 hours of normal play hell no. It would be to subtle. You have to do a comparison to remove the lapsed time in between. If you buy this cable and listen out of the box you will most likely return it. It has to go through the burn in. MA was correct on that. 

Next time I buy:
I think moving forward whatever the next cable I buy will have to sound good out of the box or at least over 48 hours or so as it should only get better from there. 

This whole thing has left me with more questions than answers about cables I have to say. Example.. I wonder where that line is.. you know the line of diminishing returns. Does a cable that costs $2500 sound that much better than a $400 cable?? Im sure I will never know. Are there different burn in periods for different cables or is 400 hours the golden number that a cable actually sings. Questions questions questions. For now I am going to just be happy with where Im at and get back to enjoying the music. Maybe someday I will try another cable upgrade.. no time soon tho. 

 In close:

I am convinced that cables do make a difference, and cable burn-in..well Im a believer. Oh by the way I did not ask my wife and friends to listen here because It was clear. Not even close in regards to is there a difference after burn-in. It was obvious to me. 

Thanks for reading. Happy listening!

@twoleftears yep. As soon as I wrap up my work day I will start my comparison. Looking forward to it. Then I have to write up a conclusion and the wheel will go round and round again lol. However it should be fun. 

Warming up the system and will report back as soon as I can.

@ieales which is why I did not only use the tape for the test. However since there were sonic differences and the differences were better on the over recorded section of the tape still proves  the point. I actually anticipated some degradation on the section of the tape I re-recorded on but the quality still improved. So for me that’s good  enough. Nothing will be perfect but I did the best I could with what I had to work with. -Thanks

I never said they are the only ones. Im saying the next cable I purchase will need to sound good out of the box. Just like my AQ cable did and if it gets better over time that’s a bonus. I agree and I think I made the point that MA was transparent in what to expect. Did I not say that? 

Thanks. It was fun. 

Fair enough. Let’s just leave it at that. However you can’t tell me what I heard and what I didn’t hear. That’s just your opinion. Which is fine by the way. I knew going in that I would not please everyone. Not trying to. Just reporting as honestly as I can of how this went down. It’s up to you or anyone else to take it as you will. Like I said.  Not trying to change anyone’s anyone’s mind about anything. Think what you will.  

Please do your insulting my intelligence. 

I think it’s worth saying. I’m not throwing shade on Morrow Audio. Their product did exactly what they said it would do. IMO they are not just saying something to make you buy their product then be disappointed after the return policy expires. The cable is worth the money I guess if your willing to be patient with it. I personally just don’t have the patience so I guess you can add “impatient” to skeptic and hard headed. Don’t get it twisted. I’m keeping the cable. Just probably will go a different route on my next csble purchase for the the aforementioned reason. 

We can agree on that at least. (No sarcasim meant)