Of caurse I agree with you about the shortcoming in many speaker designs (electrostatics are no exception) and I have state that in one of my previous posts. As to your DIY assessment - "Single driver design for DIY might be not the best choice - it is difficult and drivers are not available". I do not really agree with that statement. Fostex drivers are easily obtainable, as well as Great Plains Audio, Lowther ets. Fostex being one of the best when it comes to value and Lowther drivers as the state of the art ( some claim their superiority) but costly alternatives. If you decided to build SD enclosures yourself, it would cost you 10X less then commercial products. Even if you had to hire a cabinet maker or handy finishing carpenter it would still be substantially less then anything close in performance vs cost on the market today. (you can alway find the way if you put your mind to it) $7000 Fujitsu Eclipse is a very nice speaker. I had a pleasure of auditioning those on few occasions. Awesome image, soundstage, well balanced, cute bass*..... *and that is the problem I had with this particular speakers. Also, 7K is a bit much for what you get from these small monitors. They sure look nice though. If I told you that: you can have a speaker that will require some sweat, work, will sound IMO better then those 7K monitors (and many others in that price range) for ........lets say, $1500 - would you believe me???? The trade off - size, look, some research ( not a trade off if you can learn a thing or two about speaker design in general) and low WAF. What you can get is: * satisfaction ( you build it....right?) * open window between you and performers. * most require just a few watts of power (quality over quantity is the general rule here) * VALUE Mariusz |
1.Jean Hiraga in his new speaker prototype, using lagendary -
Great Plains Audio's coaxial Altec Company (reissued)15" woofer and 1.75" compression driver in horn-loaded enclousure.
Drivers are not cheap but not expensive either. Seems to generate quite a buzz in audio industry.
2. Not 100% single driver but......
Rethm Saadhana, using custom Lowther DX 55 driver in horn-loader enclousure. Seperate build-in amp is powering 2 peerless custom 6" drivers responsable for bass duties in each speaker.
From what I have heard - I could live with this design.
3.The last but least - Newcomer , CarderSound Madison v2 double horn-loaded design that uses a custom Fostex 8" driver.
Cabinet is similar to Olson-Nagaoka (Sachiko) design and is based on the same principles. From my understanding the cabinet is custom designed with moded Fostex in mind and verious cabinet tweaking was still nessecary to get the desire sound that IMO - was one of the best SD horn designs of lately.
I do agree with most that SD speakers are not for everyone, difficulte to design to sound right and other complaints.
Coloration , sometimes can be benefitial.......do not get me wrong....It is the accuracity that we all seek but what if it sounds pretty good??
Far from fanatic or big fan of SD or open baffle designs for that matter however, if done right - it is very interesting concept ( at least for me it is).
Shadorne
- you are on to something with The Masochist guess.
In fact, plans are being made to use some very strange ideas for my DIY projects. hahahahah.
If it won't work.....(and it probably will not) , I will stick with ready & proven design.
Mariusz |
Oh yes,
thanks to all.
Duke & JohnK
you are quite knowlodgble and all I can do is look up to you and pick your brain.......in sneaky, dark, foxy ways.hahaha.
Cheers
M.S |
Mrtennis, Timrhu & Viridian
Full range electrostatic speakers, definitely qualify as the "SD" design. The only reservation IMO (nothing is perfect) is:
*Size - full range electrostats requires large panels
*Require power - most (not all) will need some serious power to make them sound their best. SET, low power tube amps or SS Class A (in most cases) are unfortunately , incomparable with power hungry Stats or Planers.
* room size - I think that we all agree......they need some room to breath.
*Placement - well that is a given with any design, but they might need a little more attention then other designs (not a big deal if you have the space).
* If I had the necessary space....no brainer. (SoundLabs, Quads or new ML would be on my short list.......oh yea, also custom Sanders-all stats, no sub. I am sure that Roger would not disappoint and do his best to please his customers).
Mapman , Kijanki
AC is great source for OB and SD reading.
However for newbie DIY guy like my self it is not enough.
I like to explore every possible angle of design (not this site though) , opinions, plans etc.
It wasn't my intention when starting this thread.
Getting DIY-ers, users, anty-SD design guys to share and maybe educate the rest of AgoN members & visitors - is the main purpose for this thread.
There are pros and cons to every design.
Single Driver speakers are no different.
However, it should not be overlooked while searching for the pair of speakers. It is almost impossible for most audiophiles (or those starting getting their feet wet in this hobby) to audition SD speakers.
By starting this topic, I am hoping that it will at least touch the bases and qualities of this speaker design.
We all learn something new everyday.......and I will be happy to absorb as much info, tips and personal experiences of others to draw my own conclusions that will help me to better understand the art of SD design and possibly become a better listener.
Enjoying DIY projects, SD seems like the perfect "long Winter nights" shop time.
One more thing:
for those on the small budget - if you are seeking the close to state of the art audio on the cheap....look no farther. Even if you can not build your own boxes, plans are widely available. Any cabinet shop will be able to help you with this project. The results may shock you.
Enjoy the music
Mariusz |
Guys with know how and experience..........please.
What drivers are IYO good candidates for "Single Driver" design? (and could you explain why?)
Good, better , best?
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Mapman is right , if you have some spare time and basic tools - it can also be fun and productive.
I have talk to my brother (a cabinetmaker) about various building techniques and options. My conclusion is this:
*It can be done in two ways (both will work though)
1. low cost , unattractive, with simple joinery/glue up tech., 90% of the performance of the second approach (give that the plans are the same).
2. Higher cost, complicated building techniques, precision = higher fabrication costs, longer assembly time,
higher WAF, custom finish, in all - well , quality = time and $$$.
In about 15 min. we came out with the cost of the project, design tech. that will be superior in long term use, build quality, materials and finish options.
In order to meet my high standards , extra budget was dedicated for pro. finisher (solid color) and/or quite expensive veneering process (commercial press).
Veneering with plain adhesive (old school with roller)is a short term solution and will show in the form of "bubbles" and edge wear.
So the choice is yours.
Whichever way you choose, it can be done.
The cost and look is up to you.
Happy listening
Thanks
Mariusz |
Hello Joe (Trelja)
The pleasure was all mine.
Meeting you in person was something I planed on for quite some time now. You are in fact a stand up guy and passionate audiophile. Besides, I like someone who speak his mind with out reservations and sugar coating.
(please say hello to your other half and beautiful little princess. :))
As to experience with SD CarderSound speakers, yes they sure are more then meets the eye. Sound wise - I would definitely be proud to have this sound quality in my own system. Bass was more the satisfying, soundstage was first class on TyBones. Madison, excel in bass reproduction but expecting the same image and soundstage from 8" driver as the TyBone's 4 1/4"-er is simply impossible. Both awesome speaker.
I have express my concerns with this kind of design.
No, it has nothing to do with they way they sound.
It is the size and WAF, which for some may or may not be an issue.
Hearing Jeff's speakers for the second time made me curious about the possibilities of this approach (SD double horn design).
So much , that I am more then anxious to build the similar speakers for my own pleasures.
There are some issues that I would like to point out to Jeff and I will do that privately....it will hopefully make his life easier....in a long run.
The enclosures are definitely not difficult (but can be) to build but as the product that will have to satisfy all but the most discriminating customers, there is room for improvements (build, tech, appearance wise - sound wise there are no issues).
Ones again pleasure to meet you Joe and congrats to Jeff for wonderful speakers - Bravo.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Kijanki & Mapman
Measurements and state of the art equipment is more then welcome for big name companies, and I hope it will reflect in the quality and sound of the END product.
But keep in mind that all of the expenses are pass on to YOU - the client.
That is why the Revel top models will never be priced to meet the budget of regular JOE. It does make perfects sense though if one wants a ready product with good resell value and second to non cosmetics.
I have never imply that DIY speakers can shamed top speaker designs (commercially available).
What can be achieved , is the very close to live music reproduction that can make you stop looking for more.
Take all the benefits of SD design and possibility of do it it yourself (if your are persistent enough) and it is IMO no brainer. Just imagine the saving, performance and smile on your face .....knowing , what would cost you if you were going to find that kind of sound - in commercial designs.
I am not saying it is THE WAY, just something to think about or just another alternative.
I have had some very well known brands in my system (costing thousands of $) and I am telling you - I would be more then happy with SD speakers that are well design.
There are many SD speakers widely available form respected sources if DIY is not appealing to you. Auditioning quite a few, let me to believe that it is possible to build one with minimum trade offs. But keep in mind , NOT ALL are as good as the ones I have mentioned (YMMV) and there is plenty more that I have not heard yet.
So if you, or anyone for that matter is interested in this design - I would suggest some reading and most important - audition, audition, audition.
It is the only way to tell , if it is what you seek - MUSIC.
Regards
Mariusz |
Thanks Paul,
and You are right on the money. Speed, soundstage, effortless presentation and accurate portray of "emotions" surrounding particulare recording.
There is definitely something seductive about "Single Driver"
speakers to be sure. Are they perfect? :) Nothing is.
You guys can help me out with my next statement.......
IMO, it takes a bit of growing-up, seasoning if you will -
to appreciate the qualities of horns & single-driver speakers.
I feel the same way about SET amps or tubes in general.
Even though I am relatively young, my understanding of music and the way it should be portray by speakers and associated gear is plain & simple. There are planty of speakers and electronics that sound good or great. But I am sure that "good or great" in most cases is usualy not enough.....I hope I could speak for most of us......obviously I can not, so let me place IMO - just in case someone disagree with that statment.
To get back to your post Paul,
yes - SET amp (Joe's Consonance Cyber 211 mono-blocks) sounded way better with CarderSound then SQ integrated (tube, moded) and my own RWA Sig.30.2 t-amp , which we brought that day for audition.
I would also think that good OTL amp might be another alternative with potential to do those speakers justice.
I personaly had very high hopes for RWA amp but it simply prove to be poor match (it worked great with Rethm Saadhanas though). I also brought Isabella (RWA) preamp which did not disappoint - to bad we haven't had a chance to use its build-in DAC and swap some tubes (Amperex BBoys and Mullards that I had in my car).I am sure that with little tweaking we could have raise its performence few bars higher.
Paul,
you are one lucky man to own Madisons, have the room to do them justice and angel for a wife :)
Regards
Mariusz |
Yeap, 4incher image like no other but there is a trade-off.......Bass & dynamics. Unfortunatly you have to pick your poison. Rethem Saadhana, sort of figure it out by useing 6inch custom Lowther DX55 and added two 6" peerless drivers for bass below 70Hz or 100Hz (if memory serves me right).
As I recall, the image was excelent and sweet spot wide enough for avarage listener.
The single driver originality was a bit banded in this particulare exemple but it worked like a charm.
Mariusz |
I have met Andrzej (Andrew) Lipinski (my Countryman,but away)
and truely admired his enthusiasm. His experience is oriented more about the accuracity and studio application though.
If you like his speakers.......just ask. I might be able to present you with an offer you won't be able to refuse.
But seriously,
Lowther drivers are in fact very, very expensive. Are they worth the extra money, I will leave it to you.
Double horn design (just like CarderSound) will work with these drivers as well. You might have to "tweak" the box a little but it can be done.
I would also like to find out if Lowther drivers could take this design even farther. However, from DIY-er point of view - keeping the value within the reasons is my main concern.
If you decide to go DIY road, remember that Fostex as well as Lowther drivers keep their value on used market. Even the well desgn boxes could probably find a happy home in case you deside to move on in different direction.
To be quite honest, I do not see the need to upgrade from Fostex to more expensive Lowthers. From what I have heard, you will be more then satisfy.
Atmasphere,
thank you for your recommendations (it rings the bell) and I will look a little closer at those drivers.
I have heard a lot of positive comments about your horns too.
A bit pricey but you get what you paid for....I guess.
Regards
Mariusz |
T_bone
That is not what I had in mind.
Your above proposal is not so simple , necessary or present any benefit over the original design.
One of Sachiko's design benefits is that the speakers can be placed relatively close to the front wall.
You can always try to improve the build quality, tweak the box and the driver.
I will include the link tomorrow what I had in mind by double horn spiral design and omnidirectional wave guide by the use of cones at the top and bottom mouth exits.
Another interesting design would be a single spiral horn with driver firing upwards towards cone-dispersion piece for omnidirectional qualities. A use of the super-tweeter might be necessary or helpful in getting the right amount of resolution and air.
It is going to be a bussy winter. :)
MARIUSZ |
"Mariusz - he is my countryman as well but he operates in Massachusetts and it is not walking distance from where I am. I will take you on this offer - didn't you say 75% discount? Kijanki" Close!!!!!! |
Couple years back (I think in 2007), during N.Y Home Entertainment Show if memory serves me right - I audition Lipinski speakers and met the man himself.
From what I've heard, it was one of the few positive demonstrations over the 2 days period spend at the Hyatt hotel. My impression (then) of Lipinski speakers reflect those found in Stereophile review - accuracy, lock of coloration, delicacy and dynamics when called for. Of course with use of his own subs and paired with SS mono-block amps.....which but away , you can all have in the sweetest deal ever.
Or you can wait few months and I will inform you and ask you to hear for yourself - brand new speakers that hopefully will turn heads ( at very reasonable price I might add).
Cheers
Mariusz |
T_bone
Tybones have great image, speed and soundstage....no question about it.
Bass is dynamic and tunefull but if the last two octaves are important to you, I would consider the Sachiko double horn design and 8" Fostex instead.
Your spiral idea is quite difficult to execute.
I am working on the similar design as we speak and I can tell you that it is far from easy. In fact, my design includes
double spiral horn with omnidirectional qualities.
It should be fun playing around with those.
Cheers
Mariusz |
Listen to well design SD speakers and you will find it very hard to go in any other direction. Match it with SET amp and its seductive qualities andd you will be in heaven.
Build it yourself.....ahhhhhh , what a felling.
Seat pretty and enjoy the magic.
Jeff's line of SD speakers is the perfect exemple.(others too)
Is Jeff's design base on original Sachiko (Cardersound Madison)? I do not know and I do not care. What matters is that it is a fine speaker (As well as TyBone).
The point is, that when done right - it works.
Sure.......to get the most out of any design, one must pay atention to details and a lots of tweaking.
The fruit will show in sound to die for.
Jeff,
thanks for opportunity to audition the Madisons and TyBones.
They are awesome.
I am in the works to build my own Sachiko based speakers as well as another (new design(s)) SD speaker that hopefuly will turn heads.
I wish you well and hope to see you again sometimes.
Best
Mariusz |
Jeff,
please do contact me if you could.
For some strange reasones ALL of my contacts and emails vanished from my Gmail account.......I do not think it is becouse of my porn addiction :):)
but I still have to get in touch with Gmail staff to try to recover my contacts etc.
The center and surrounds sounds like interesting idea. In fact, I have the plans for on-wall Single Driver Fostex base surrounds as well but since I am not into HT stuff (love film but the format and excesive gear idea... sucks) Those might never see the daylight.....who knows.
All I can say - you are on the right track just keep on going.
From what I have heard, you will do just fine.
I wish you a great success with your line of speakers.
You deserved it.
As to your guess........well
you are probably right.....I have some crazy ideas.
Sachiko boxes will get some "Royal" treatment. Tweaking them is another story though.
I still have few weeks to put the master plan in motion. That is the time when the custom drivers will arrive.
But that is half of the story. (the helf that I am not to worry about)
The other half is a completely new design that I promised to post in this thread yesterday but did not. I will try to do it tonight.....if time permits.
I will be looking for thoughts, reactions and concerns from fellow audiophiles and DIYers.......and you Jeff as well.
I will come back later tonight and try to pass on some details and pics.
Cheers
Mariusz |
Hi there, here is a little tease A prototype double spiral horn Design will be based on the double spiral horns prototype by fellow DIYer. The actual spiral will be more advancedLoading top and bottom of the speaker equally with dispersion wood tuned cone (mushroom). The distance between the cone(s) and the mouth can be adjustable to fine tune the bass. Driver used will be modified Fostex Fe206e . I am hoping to have this speaker finished by the end of this year in very advanced cabinet and exotic finishes with help of few talented craftsmen and myself. To be continue.......... Mariusz |
Hi Jeff,
thanks for your email.
The surrounds and center look very nice.
It is cool that you did not forget about those who might think of using your speakers for their stereo rig but still have an option to expend to 5.1 SACD or AC3.
Without a doubt, it must be a great "SD speaker" system.
Seems like you do not get to much rest lately.
It has been only a month and you've already came out with the new subs, center & surrounds.
Very impressive.
As to my prototype, well it is nothing to go bananas about.
Yes, its size is/will be much smaller then Madisons - about 54" high, 12" deep, 12" wide.
And I am not really trying to replicate the sound of the Sachiko. In fact, my biggest challenge and what drove me into this project is the idea of the single driver speaker that is:
- relatively easy to drive, including SET amps.
- manageable size
- very high WAF ( my wife loves these speakers already and gave me her blessing for this and another project)
- achieving decent low frequency response.
- source direct and omnidirectional qualities.
- but the most importantly - awesome, 3D, dynamic and huge sound that can be fit into the small to medium rooms.
There is another project that I am also very exited about.
True omnidirectional speaker with the use of the single full-range driver and horn-loaded super tweeter. But that is in the really far future.....maybe next year or so.
I will be more then happy to have you over to listen to the first pair. Sometime by the end of this year during one of the NY Raves. I am planning to host the special "Analog Rave" - with my two or three modified TT, Sachiko and Double Spiral speakers as well as RWA (Red Wine Audio) new (prototype) battery-powered phono-stage and my own Isabella battery preamp.
Should be fun.
I will try to share with the rest about the progress and the end results.
Take care and hope to see you in the near future.
Regards
Mariusz |
Here are some sketches. One is the prototype of spiral design (similar to the omni that I am working on. Except the driver will be firing upwards toward the wood-turn cone.....as well as super tweeter in the same configuration) and Sachiko with a twist: Spiral designand Sachiko with a twistI have also purchase Melody M300b mono SET amps which will be used to voice both. Should be fun.....all winter long.;) JohnK Thanks for the vintage RS drivers. Will use those in OB designs and another system for my daughter (9.5yo , loves music and TT) Thanks again Mariusz Cheers |
Hey John,
here in NY we came out with the idea which helps with moving unwanted or excessive gear/parts/services.
It is sort of audiophile "garage sale". Ones a month we hold the audiophile meeting (Rave) where auditions/deals/trades can be made. No PP fees, shipping, aggravations etc,etc.
P.S
PM send
Ones again thanks
Mariusz |
