Single Driver Horn vs Multi driver efficient spker

Nice thread, and something I've been thinking/exprimenting a lot with lately.

There is a sonic coherence to single driver sound that is very, very, hard to match with multidriver systems having crossovers in the critical range. Not impossible, but generally beyond the capacity of most speakers.

When done properly, it seems that music eminates from a single, seamless, tapestry - just flowing forward. And, there is a realism that can be spooky and addicting. tonality can also be unworldly.

But, like all things in audio, there are tradeoffs and problems. Bass being the biggest for me. There's no problem with deep, tuneful, bass, many achieve this. It's power, authority, and punch that is difficult to achieve. I'm talking about tactile sensation of a drummer's padded kickdrum being hit. That sudden pressurization of air that buffets your body. For that, you need driver excursion or large driver area, something most single-drivers do not have.

I've got Cain & Cain IM-Bens w/ the Fostex T-900A supertweeter pods AND a pair of C&C Bailey subwoofers. I also have the Hammer Dynamics Super-12's. Both speakers are fantastic, albeit vastly different price ranges.

You can get amazingly punchy bass with the Hammers, not doubt about it. They also handle complex passages extremely well. With some affordable mods, they can be real top performers. If anyone is looking to get into high-eff single-drivers, they are a perfect first step. You can get years of complete enjoyment out of them without betting the farm.

The six foot C&C Ben's are in another league 3 steps up the ladder in almost every capacity. And they should be for almost 18x more(w/ dual subs). Their rated frequency range is 45-36kHz. With that, I get nimble, deep, tuneful bass. The type that lets me hear all the minor inflections and decay of standup bass strings. The minute sounds os a bow drawing across cello strings. The ability to sense the wooden body of cellos and pianos in notes.

But, in both cases, I'm still in search of the chest thumping "thhtt, thhtt, thhhtt!!" of kickdrums. Or, the deep buffeting waves of kettle drums and timpani. The C&C Bailey subs seem to be primarily designed to enhance the nimble midbass and bass of the Bens instead of absolute authority.

The other factor has been sub amps. The pro audio 275wpc Samson Servo 550 amp I had for a short while was simply not up to the task. I also tried a Pro Hafler 500 amp last weekend, but the fan was so loud it was unusable for music.

I'm hooked on single drivers, but I did hear some ATC 100 litre active speakers two weekends ago that did bass in a way that made me almost want to jump ship. This last weekend I listened to some 3 way speakers using vintage 15" Truesonic fullrangers with an added midrange driver and tweeter that had punch galore. They were driven by monster 211 SET monoblocks. Yowsa!

Hi Gmood,

Are you using Martin King's Brines Acoustics FTA-2000 speakers or your own design? I've heard really great things about them.

When it comes to single-drivers, there is always a tradeoff - highs & lows for great mids, highs & mids for great lows, lows for great highs & mids. No driver does it all.

I suspect that Fostex offers a driver for each possible emphasis (and even more I haven't thought of). The 6.5" FE 168 Sigmas used in my Bens definetly trade bass punch for great mids/highs. They do 40Hz, but without punch, no matter how large the cabinet gets. Of course, I wouldn't expect a six incher to thump my chest.

The Hammer Dynamics Super-12 twelve inch driver trades high frequencies and absolute fine detail for great mids and lows. It has 40Hz punch when combined with it's 70 litre cabinet. The supertweeter is crossed in at 10kHz.

The Hammers have nowhere near the fine detail, articulation, or imaging of the C&C's, but do have terrific tonality. Far beyond their cost. Dynamics are a tough comparison. Once again, Fostex wins, but the Hamms are no slouch.

I just need to dial in some punch and I'm set for life.

hey Brm1/Mike!

What's your sytems made up of - speakers, amp, preamp, sources?

Hey Gmood1, I made a mistake...

My IM-Bens use the FE-168E Sigma, not the FE-168 Sigma with wizzer cone. (side-by-side picture) I'm not sure how big of difference that makes sound wise, but there are significant physical differences and the specs are totally different. Also, my drivers also have the optional heavy mass loading brass ring around the outside. I think the added mass is supposed to enhance definition and overall resolution.

Why don't we move this conversation over to the thread about my system, so we don't further fork this discussion from Brm's questions.

I've got some interesting SPL meter readings from my speakers and room.

"I like how the Sigma layers the music also.You have the advantage of using very low wattage amplifiers."

I've been searching for appropiate term that describes the overall presentation and "layers the music" is perfect. There's a complex harmony of layers going on. And I think a big part of that is low-watage SET & PP amps.

Anyway, hop on over to the thread about my system and we can continue with your points concerning in-room response.

Punch - where does it come from?

At what freq. does the "punch" happen?

As I understand it, the actual "attack" or "leading edge" of a drum strike or percussive note, actually happens much further up the frequency range than the body of the note(s). Perhaps even in the treble region.

But, that's not what we feel hit our bodies or energize the room is it? And in the case of typani or ketle srums struck with a padded mallet, there doesn't seem to be any preceding "snap".

I know it probably depends on the note the particular drum or instrument is tuned to, but does anyone have a good understanding of this topic and can shed a little light on it? Like what frequency are the Tom-Toms of a drum set commonly tuned to?

Whoa, that's a cool speaker. Hemp cone material, serious cabinet construction. I'd love to hear it in my system.For those interested, here's the Omega Hemptone 8" webpage. Eight inch driver, 96dB, 20"x11"x14".

You've got give up any type of comparsion between a 50Wpc KT-88/6550 push-pull amp into 5 driver floorstanders and a low power SET into a single-driver, fullrange, monitor. It's apples and oranges or the most extreme type unless you are simply talking about musical involvement.

No way you are ever going to get the type of punch you're used to out of your current setup. Fullrangers are generally low excursion drivers and your cabinet is not that big.

But, you should be able to get a purity, directness, and imaging that is superior via the simple SET design and crossoverless speakers. You should get a "reach out touch" type of midrange richness. The soundstage should much more holographic. And minute details and articulation should be lot more apparent. Subtle nuances that you never noticed.

Have you played with speaker location much? It has been much harder to locate my fullrangers for great sound than it was with my multidrivers.

Also, are you using the same speaker cables as before? That ould be the dynamics and punch problem. High(ish) efficiency speakers tend to favor small gauge cables. Magnet wire Litz configurations, etc.

Don't give up yet, it takes a lot of work to get the most out of a high-eff, single driver, system, but it is well worth it when you get there.

Try to get someone with a lot of high-eff/SET experience over to your house for a listen. They might help shorten the learning/setup curve substantially.

I was about to give up a few months ago, then had a really experienced horn guy come over. He convinced me to switch the speakers to the other side of the room and then helped with fine tuning the placement. It made a world of difference - I'm hooked.

You are right, the Beta version amp(integrated?) could very easily be the problem. Everything is SET/audio is a tradeoff and there is no free lunch. It's easy to get one factor right, but all of them take skill, experience, and/or money.

The designers of your amp may be focusing on subterranean bass at the expense of midrange magic or highs. Or, they simply may not have the circuit fine-tuned yet. There is a reason why it's a "Beta", afterall.

I just started to get into high-eff speakers and SET's last year. Believe it or not, in a massive town like Los Angeles County(265 sq. miles), there are only 2 or 3 shops that carry single-ended gear. There is no way to get any idea what it's all about.

Regardless, whenever you get into something new, the first few tries are more about finding out what you don't like than the opposite(unless you get horribly lucky).

As a result, I decided to buy well known, well received, amps of mature designs (nothing new), that I could easily resell for breakeven after getting a good sense of what they have to offer. There just no substitute for 1st hand, personal, experience in your own system. I am now on my 4th this year. Every single one has had something great about them. But, then the others have been just as good in their own way.

Do not get shackled to one amp that may not have any resale value, there are a plethora of great companies making superbly affordable SET gear these days. Especially, in your ($2k-3k)price range if a used Cary SEi was possible - ASL, Welborne Labs, Almarro, Sophia Electric, Eastern Minimax, Opera Consonance, DiyHiFi, Decware, Bottlehead, etc.

All of those make first rate amps that have a proven performance record are easily resold along with keeping their value.

Perhaps you should try something different if you can get your money back.

Hey Mikemarv, the Cain & Cain I-Bens being displayed at the VTV show are actually mine along with my Art Audio PX-25 amp. I think the dealer, Paul Lim of Imagine HiFi, will be using a single Bailey subwoofer(I use two). For preamplifier, he'll probably be using a Pass Labs X-2.5. I don't know the sources.

It will be interesting to see if it is possible to get halfway decent sound out of my speakers in a hotel room. And I've never tried a solid state preamp with the PX-25, so who knows how that will work.

BTW, I am a little nervous about lending out my speaks and amp - never done that before. But, people really need to see C&C's in person to appreciate the workmanship and quality. Hopefully, room acoustics will be friendly so it's possible to get a hint of their true potential.