Wdi: If you are looking for a cable that is characterized as sounding "warm and smooth" or "musical" by many folks that have heard them, try building a pair of Jon Risch's SSTP ( Solid / Stranded Twisted Pair ) cables. This makes use of copper cores extracted from what starts out as Belden 89259 and Belden 89248. The 89259 is a stranded copper / teflon cable and the 89248 is a solid copper / teflon cable. Jon was originally using two of the stranded cores and Thorsten Loesch and i suggested that he try using solid core wire. Jon experimented with two identical gauge solid core / teflon wires and said that it sounded very good, but had a noticeable "honk" to the midrange. He then tried two solid copper / teflon cables of different gauges, but the "honk" was still barely present. He began experimenting with mixing / matching solid stranded wires of various gauges and came up with the design that i mentioned above. His thoughts on this were that by using two completely different wires, the cable would not have any one significant factor to reinforce specific sonic characteristics or contribute to a distinct sound. By taking this approach, one would stagger any resonances / electrical characteristics of either cable far enough apart from each other so as to minimize their individual contributions to what one heard as an end result. The cable uses two different gauges and styles of conductors ( 18 gauge solid and 22 gauge stranded )and offers very reasonable impedance characteristics. It is low enough in inductance to reduce the potential for RFI yet low enough in capacitance to not roll off the frequency extremes. Unlike speaker cables whre high inductance is bad, high capacitance is the enemy in interconnects. Jon recommends using the stranded 22 gauge wire as the "hot" and the 18 gauge solid as the "ground". I tried that configuration and found it to be a bit tizzy sounding. If one has a dull sounding system, one might prefer this method since it does sound a bit "hotter". I then reversed the wiring i.e. the 18 gauge solid for the "hot" and the 22 gauge stranded as the "ground" and liked it a LOT better. While i know that music is an AC signal and that it must pass through both conductors, and that theoretically, the sound should not change with either configuration, it has been my experience that the sound DOES change. Having said the above, i know of several regulars on AA that have tried building the 89259 / 89248 "SSTP's" using both methods of construction. All of those that i know that have compared both methods have always chosen the method that i suggested to them. That is, they thought that using the 89248 solid core wire as the hot sounded better / more natural than if they used the 89259 stranded core as the hot. Personally, i think that this is a very good sounding cable when properly built. That is, so long as one uses good quality connectors and solder and follows the directions. It may lack some "sparkle" and "air" up top if one is used to a very bright and / or lean cable, but it is basically a very neutral performer that performs to a level that is WAY beyond the expenses incurred. I think that most people find it "warm" simply because there is a complete lack of upper midrange glare or sibilance present. That is, IF the gear that it is connected to is of good quality. Otherwise, i think that the cable is neutral enough to pass on whatever is fed into it. If one were looking for a bit more top end extension while retaining the basic "neutral" characteristics of this cable, one could substitute the core of a Belden 1506A cable for that of the 89248 in the "hot" position. This moves the solid core conductor from an 18 gauge up to a 20 gauge and still achieves Jon's goals of staggered gauges / resonances. Obviously, the basic design that Jon came up with can be used as a food for thought. Other types of wire ( various gauges & materials ) can be substituted as one desires to suite their systems and "wire beliefs". One can use a 24 or 26 gauge copper wire with a 30 gauge silver conductor ( for example ) and "fine tune" the design until they find what they like. Hope some of you find this idea intriguing enough to try it out for yourself. It would be WELL worth it : ) Sean > |
You guys crack me up with 22 gauge being too heavy for interconnects. Then again, i'm sure that the feeling is just the opposite on your end when i talk about "too much power is not enough" : ) For the record, 20 gauge is "linear" up to and slightly above 20 KHz. 24 gauge is linear up to appr 100 KHz. By "linear", i'm talking about a minimum of skin effect, etc... With that in mind, the 22 - 23 gauge wire should be good up to about 50 - 60 KHz or so. Should anyone want to challenge those figures, talk to Walt Jung and Richard Marsh, not to me. They researched and documented all of this in the late 1970's with papers submitted to the AES during that time frame. Having said that, there are two schools of thought on wire. One is to keep it as simple as possible and use one solid conductor per polarity with as little dielectric interference as possible. Greg Weaver, formerly of Soundstage and now with Stereo Times, made "signal tape" in his February 1998 article following this formula. I also think that Chris Venhaus aka Chris VH has some similar recipes, at least in basic principle, on his website. Many claim that one runs into smearing when running multiple conductors, primarily due to unequal length signal paths, phase / impedance non-linearities, increased dielectric absorption, strand jumping when using stranded wire, etc.... I guess that these folks believe in the old acronym "K.I.S.S." ( Keep It Simple, Stupid ). Along those lines, they probably feel that the less that touches the signal and the straighter & shorter that the path is, the less there is to go wrong. There is a lot of validity to such a belief in my book. On the other side of the coin, you have those folks that believe that one should have the lowest possible series resistance and pay special attention to physical geometries / electrical impedances in terms of trying to reduce RFI, etc... Their thoughts are that any series resistance involved may be more deleterious to the signal than the majority of effects mentioned above. On top of that, a cable that acts as an antenna and allows more noise into the system will surely result in lower performance. By using multiple conductors arrayed in specific patterns, one can reduce series resistance and minimize the potential for the cable to act as an antenna. Obviously, there are those that fall somewhere in-between those two extremes and / or want the best of both worlds. Personally, that is why i think that there are so many different cable designs on the market. Each designer / builder feels that their approach is "most correct" in terms of how they specifically go about things. Most all designs incorporate various aspects of the same beliefs but tend to concentrate on some aspects more than others. The end result is a product that has strengths and weaknesses rather than a "mighty conquerer" that delivers all of the goods in a totally uncompromising fashion. Then again, some folks DO have specific sonic preferences in terms of "flavouring" their system and they build or use products to suite those tastes. Obviously, there is enough room in this field and diversity of products available for everyone to find what they like and be happy with it : ) Other than the above, I would suggest building a couple different designs and see what you like the best within the confines of your system. You might find that one design works well between CD and preamp and a different design works best from preamp to power amp, etc... Don't be afraid to experiment as that is how you will learn. If you find that you like one design much better than any of the others, it is not that hard to unsolder the wires and re-configure them into that design. That is, so long as you didn't go crazy and make things "permanent" when building them to begin with : ) One more suggestion. Most silver that i'm experienced with takes noticeably longer to break in than does copper. If you have some way to pump high level signals through them prior to really giving them a serious listen, you'll be better off. Otherwise, you might experience higher levels of listening fatigue and / or a sense of tonal balance that is lean and tilted upwards in response. Best wishes and let us know what designs you try and what you like best. I'm always curious as to others' results when "home-brewing". Sean > |
Someone reading this thread contacted me and took my comments re: "you guys crack me up" as being somewhat of an insult. As such, I'd like to clarify what i meant when i said what i did. My comments were NOT meant as an insult to anyone participating or reading this thread with the point of view that supposedly "cracked me up". It was strictly meant to say that we have different points of view and that different points of view are sometimes humourous when sitting on the other side of the fence. What is "believable" or "fact" to one may be "humorous" or "silly" to someone of a different persuasion, especially if they don't agree or fully understand where the other person is coming from. Having said that, i think that many of us take this way too seriously. I hope that those of us with opposite points of view or points of view that sometimes conflict can overlook these differences and continue to share our experiences REGARDLESS of whether we agree or not. As a case in point, while it may seem that Albert and I have been disagreeing a lot lately ( and we have been ), Albert knows that i have the highest amount of respect for him that i can. Both as a human being and as an audiophile. Albert is a true gentleman and displays nothing less than "class" and "elegance" in every way that he handles himself and deals with situations. Having said that, we simply have different points of view and experiences and i "think" ( or at least "hope" ) that Albert understands that i'm not trying to "do battle" with him. Quite the contrary. I'm trying to encourage others to share what may be opposing points of view to what is being posted here, be it my post or Albert's. I can see how someone could take my posts as being "totalitarian" or "confrontational", as i have a "matter of fact" type of writing and conversation style. With that in mind, i'm not above learning or being reprimanded. Just bare in mind that if something does fly in the face of my own knowledge or experience, i am one of those people that will say "show me". I really do WANT to learn and one learns by di-secting information and breaking it down to the root of the situation. This may come across as being confrontational to some, but it is not meant to be that way at all. The person that contacted me privately did so out of respect as they did not want to disagree with me / attack my point of view publicly. My response to them was, and i quote from the email that i sent them, "Other than that, i'm just a bigmouth that loves the "hobby" and wants to share my joy & experiences with others. I'm honoured that you find my posts at least "interesting", as that is about all that i could ask for. I've learned a long time ago that you can't please all of the people all of the time, so i simply try to share an honest opinion and hope that someone can either learn from it or help me to learn otherwise." Later in the same email, i stated: "Other than that, feel free to blast me or share your comments in public. I would rather have others join in and share their experiences in public for all to see and learn from than to keep such information "hostage". While i do appreciate your effort and the amount of respect that you demonstrated by contacting me privately, i'm nobody special and am not above "public flogging" if the conditions warrant it : )" Having said that, i hope that some of you may have a better understanding of who i am and how i operate. If you don't, just tell me to shut up and i'll get the message : ) Sean > |
Audioengr: Even if one were to find "100% pure silver", I would not consider the difference of .05% over the 99.95% purity level of the jewelry store wire to be "much purer". I know that there are those ( probably you included ) that will tell me that such differences are clearly audible, but i have a REAL hard time believing that. Sean > |
Audioengr: I can't say that i have knowingly listened to / compared "low purity silver" directly against "high purity silver". With that in mind, my thoughts are that the difference in sonics between the levels of purity that we are talking have little to do with absolute purity but more with how the wire was drawn and the texture of it. My thoughts are that one can have a road constructed with the finest of materials yet still suffer from massive pot-holes and uneven surfaces, etc... Just as such a road does not make for smooth or fast travelling, i would imagine that the same thing could be said for electrons with "jagged" conductors. Just a guess though as i'm not a metalurgist and i don't play one on tv : ) Wdi: I would venture to say that your "phobia" of stranded cables is probably pretty well based, as i too normally prefer solid core conductors. Having said that, all i can tell you is that a Mobie or other "good quality" burner can work wonders on "fixing" many of the problems that we associate with stranded conductors. Other than that, i would HIGHLY encourage you to experiment with whatever raw parts you have available. It is quite possible to take one interconnect and work through quite a few different configurations with a little soldering. That is, if it uses more than two conductors : ) As far as capacitance goes, how much is "too much" will vary with the components that you are using. Some IC based SS designs may have a fit with a short run of "reasonably high" capacitance cables whereas most tube based gear will sing and dance under the same conditions. With that in mind, most braided / multi-conductored / heavily shielded interconnects end up right around 30 - 45 pf / foot and i don't think that this amount is really too much of a big deal on a "decent" component. Most "basic" interconnects are well under 25 pf / foot, which means that you could literally run two to three times the length of "generic" interconnect as some of these fancy ones and end up with the same appr amount of capacitance. I will say that the Goertz "flat" interconnects are VERY high in capacitance ( much like their "flat" speaker cables ) and can throw some designs for a loop very quickly. I measured a 6' run of their Silver Sapphire's as clocking in at appr 1320 pF total !!! That works out to appr 220 pf / foot !!! In comparison, the reading that i took off of a run of the Belden 89248 / 89259 combo mentioned above worked out to about 8 - 9 pf / foot. The Magnan 3's that i have worked out to about 30 pf foot, which i really thought would have been higher than that. As you can see, one foot of the Goertz Silver Sapphire would be equivalent to almost 25 feet of the Belden twisted pair cable !!! As such, you have to be careful when working with ANY "exotic" designs as they can be QUITE reactive in very small quantities. Sonic Genius: I agree that consistency in design / construction is a hard thing to do for a DIY'er. In this regard, the cable manufacturers do have a big advantage in terms of repeatable designs and consistent spacing / impedance due to the use of automated machinery doing most of the labor. As such, one really has to work at paying attention to what they are doing in order to build "consistent" and "repeatable" cables when doing DIY. Having some basic test equipment to compare your results as you go surely doesn't hurt either : ) I'd just like to stress that many "cable manufacturers" are not manufacturers at all. Many are actually "resellers" of pre-manufactured cables that they have their name put on for them. As such, they probably don't have the know how or test equipment to actually verify / compare designs and results. They leave that up to you to do that for them. At the same time, you'll probably end up paying them tall cash for what is basically a commonly available product. As such, be careful what you buy and from whom you buy it. Chances are, they don't have the the knowledge /tools to really make a "better" product. If you want to know if a cable manufacturer actually "knows" what they are doing and has the tools to design a better product, ask them about their "TDR*". If they have one and know what it is, they'll think that you know what you are talking about and have an electronics background. If they have no idea what it is, you might know what you are talking about. That is, compared to them : ) Sean > * TDR is an acronym for Time Domain Reflectometer. This is a device that can measure just about every aspect of wire / cable performance known to man. Needless to say, they are quite costly and only those that are "hardcore" into designing / building / testing various cables with the knowledge to know how to interpret such data would own such a device. Then again, you can own a hammer and still not be much of a carpenter : ) |
Audioengr: I can't say that i have access to the same equipment that you do or the experience that you have designing / testing cabling, but i would think that impedance bumps and the resultant non-linear propagation that results might be something that one might consider important if seeking to build the "holy grail" of audio cables. Is this not as big of a factor as i might believe ? If it is not, then the advantages that i've given to manufacturers in terms of having more consistent production / repeatable designs has been completely negated. If that is the case, the only differences between a DIY and professionally built cable would be of the quality of parts used. As such, i am even further inclined to encourage others to experiment with DIY based cables using high grade materials. Based on your above comments, there isn't much to be gained by spending more money on professionally prepared versions of similar design / geometry if one were to use an equivalent grade of parts. Sean > |
