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Sibilance issues with vinyl rig

howdy
I've recently gotten into vinyl, investing quite heavily, and coming away unimpressed and frustrated.
the problem is sibilance...I find some albums almost unbearable, and if not unbearable, not terribly pleasant to listen to. On other albums, there is a sibilant 'cast' - even surface noise, and tick and pops have a hollow, pitched up characteristic to them that is unlike I've experienced listening to other systems. When people say 'vinyl sounds way better than cd's', I wonder what the hell they're talking about, or what it is that I'm doing wrong.
I should list out my system quickly just in case there's some familiarity within the membership and perhaps a quick fix, and also to see where I'm at in this hobby:
Rega Saturn cd player
Modwright swl9.0se pre amp
Cary audio slm 70 mono blocks
Totem model 1's
totem thunder sub
running springs haley power conditioning
harmonic tech cabling throughout
vinyl rig:
vpi scoutmaster with jmw-9 signature tonearm and single flywheel motor upgrade and vpi sds
benz micro ace low output mc cartridge
sim audio lp5.3 phono stage
harmonic tech magic cables (used) between turntable and phono stage, and between the phono stage and Modwright pre (new)...I've noted this as the magic cables are newer than what's in the rest of the system.
The lp5.3 phono stage is used, I'm the third owner
The cartridge was new....the turntable, cartridge and magic cables to the phono stage have about 100-150 hours on them now.
I'm quite happy with the cd playback...the saturn was the best under $5000 player I'd auditioned, save for one, and that is in the company of krell, copland, meridian, etc...so in general the system as a whole performs rather well...and no sibilance issues with cd playback.
I set up the turntable myself, following Michael Fremer's dvd in which he demo'd the setup of a scoutmaster. I do have a nice digital stylus gauge, and have purchased the soundsmith counterintuitive to assist with the difficulty of setting the tracking force/azimuth on this tonearm. I can't say I'm an expert at setup, but in listening there are no other issues (left/right balance, tracking erors, etc), so I figure I'm 90% there.
I've tried every resistive setting on the lp5.3. I've tried lowering the output, but I already need to set the volume at 4-5 out of 10 to get where the volume is equal to what 3 out of 10 provides using cd playback, and it didn't solve my problem anyway (thought the sibilance might be caused overloading the rest of the signal path..btw, the benz has an output of .4mv). I fiddled with vta, and found little if any difference. I meticulously clean my records (most of which are brand new) before playing, put them in rice paper sleeves, and use the requisite record and stylus cleaning brushes...in other words, I'm meticulous and thorough. I listen to a huge variety of music, and have extreme familiarity with some (admittedly not all) of the albums - I know how they should sound...ironically, it's the ones I'm familiar with that bother me the most. I do assume the new components should be broken in by now, and either way, there has been little or no change since the initial setting up.
I've invested a chunk of money time and effort, and expected the vinyl rig to sound at least as good as the cd, but I'm disappointed....would really appreciate any input...help!
josephwol

Showing 7 responses by tzh21y

tzh21y
1,654 posts
 
I have a Scout JMW 9 Tonearm combo with a Benz Cartridge. Sadly I must say that I have heard records that tracked perfectly all the way through, not on my Scout JMW 9.

One thing I have learned from talking to other analog lovers and listening for a long time is my Benz needs the VTA setting on the JMW 9 to be very low, almost as low as it will go on my tonearm. Assuming your cartridge is aligned properly and isolated, try to get the top of the cartridge parallel with the record surface. That shoud be your starting point, not what VPI tells you about the tonearm being parallel to the record.

You may want to try MM or MI cartridges as they for the most part track a little better. I have never tried one and it might sound great, you may be suprised. Make sure that the compliance is right. The effective mass of the JMW 9 is under 8 grams. Probably a medium to higher compliance MM cart will be somewhat better. I do feel your pain. You can get it to track better, but it will most likely never be perfect, especially during crescendos.

Benz cartridges need a medium to high mass arm to sound their best as it says right in the specs. The JMW 9 is neither. That was my mistake.

I have been at it for a long time. I have the Mint.

For many, the Scout JMW 9 may be all they ever need, but if you are like me, in time you will ultimately want more performance.

The thing I don't like is if I don't want a VPI JMW 9, I feel like I am stuck. That is not a good thing. I would love to put a Fidelity Research, Hadcock, Moerch, or whatever on this table. There is just not enough room without getting into big time mods and I am not sure it is worth the effort in the end.
tzh21y
1,654 posts
 
Well, I can say is I have had my table professionally looked at. Synopsis: We checked everything with a scope, cartridge analyzer, test record, had a friend who knows how to set up tables come over and they all said the same thing, the benz needs more mass. Maybe I am just very picky. My friends table sounds fantastic and he is the one who came over and set mine up. It sounded no different than when I used the Mint LP. The only thing that has made a little difference is azimuth ajustment and VTA, helped a little. The ebony is a $$$$.%% cartridge, maybe it has a better suspension? I Don't know. Maybe my cartridge is faulty. That would be 2 Benz's in a row with problems. Not likely.

The moving magnet is probably the way to go. I had a blue point on my table a while ago and it trounced the benz in tracking. It just did not sound like the benz.

Maybe the pivot to spindle length is off on my table. I would not know what to measure, they don't list any of these critical specs. All they say is it is a drop in for the Rega RB300, so I guess I have to guess that it is the same as the Rega.
tzh21y
1,654 posts
 
The 9 inch JMW is not a good choice for MC cartridges. It simply is not good enough for this. The 10 inch JMW arm is much better in this regard. JMW 9 may be fine for MM, I am going to try this. I am planning to upgrade down the road. I just like the way the Benz sounds and it is hard to give up. I would have to think that the mistracking that is occuring cannot be good for my records

I had the JMW 9 and Scout in to have it professionally analyzed about a year ago. They could not believe how poorly the JMW 9 tracked with the MC cartridge and pretty much told me (trying to be nice about it) that the Benz was too much cartridge for the arm. They did not say that MM cartridges would not sound as good or better than MC cartridges, he just said they inherently require different things (more Mass)and different tonearm designs to sound their best. They recommended a MM cartridge for the JMW 9 on the spot. I was not willing to see the light at the time. I thought I must be doing something wrong.

I had an audiophile friend come over as he knows how to set up a table. He has a thirty year old table that tracks absolutely amazing. The sound is so solid, deep, and detailed. I am a little jeolous as I never believed a record could sound so good.

It is possible, very possible. I am now a believer.

He also told me time for a MM cartridge or a new setup.

I guess MM cartridges can be very good and are worth looking into.
tzh21y
1,654 posts
 
The 9 inch JMW is not a good choice for MC cartridges. It simply is not good enough for this. The 10 inch JMW arm is much better in this regard. JMW 9 may be fine for MM, I am going to try this. I am planning to upgrade down the road. I just like the way the Benz sounds and it is hard to give up. I would have to think that the mistracking that is occuring cannot be good for my records

I had the JMW 9 and Scout in to have it professionally analyzed about a year ago. They could not believe how poorly the JMW 9 tracked with the MC cartridge and pretty much told me (trying to be nice about it) that the Benz was too much cartridge for the arm. They did not say that MM cartridges would not sound as good or better than MC cartridges, he just said they inherently require different things (more Mass)and different tonearm designs to sound their best. They recommended a MM cartridge for the JMW 9 on the spot. I was not willing to see the light at the time. I thought I must be doing something wrong.

I had an audiophile friend come over as he knows how to set up a table. He has a thirty year old table that tracks absolutely amazing. The sound is so solid, deep, and detailed. I am a little jeolous as I never believed a record could sound so good.

It is possible, very possible. I am now a believer.

He also told me time for a MM cartridge or a new setup.

I guess MM cartridges can be very good and are worth looking into.
tzh21y
1,654 posts
 
It is not that the JMW 9 is terrible. It is just not the best choice for MC cartridges. VPI's longer arms are better for them. Mark, nobody is saying you have to spend tons to get great performance, although the better arms usually do cost more. Maybe some older arms could really perform pretty well and better some of the newer designs.

I do wish I had more options armwise for the Scout. Maybe I do and just don't know it. If I did, I am sure I would have heard it by now. Maybe my next table will be able to accommodate more than one arm.

I made the mistake for the cartridge I purchased. I just wish someone at that moment would have offered me other options. I did not know and it is an expensive learning experience for me.
tzh21y
1,654 posts
 
Update. A friend of mine brought his Benz Glider over and set it up on my table. It tracks perfect. This is the first time I have heard this kind of performance on my Scout JMW 9. Now I know that it is not the table or arm. Maybe there is something wrong with my cartridge. It is just tracking perfectly. I cannot believe it. I just may see if I can keep it. I guess this vindicates VPI for me anyways. No sibilance or inner groove distortion at all. my friend should go into business doing this.. He could make a lot of people very happy. My table tracks very similar to his right now. I am amazed.

The area that confused me is that I had 2 benz cartridges in a row set up by the shop that did the exact same thing performance wise. The exact same troubles. Then my friend brings over this Glider and it is perfect. Go figure. I am enjoying my vinyl rig for the very first time. It took him all of a half hour. We used the Mint LP and the VPI tonearm weight.
tzh21y
1,654 posts
 
I took of the the headshell weight and it sounds better.

One think I always noticed with my H2 is the the diamond would point towards the spindle. The cartridge body would be perpendicular with the record surface but not the diamond. I read on here somewhere that it is common and that it can be adjusted. I would adjust the azimuth with the counterweight but I could never seem to get it perfect. The Glider looks pretty straight and maybe that is one of the reasons for the poor tracking in the past.
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