Tenmus,
There is no serious mismatch between your cartridge and arm. The TriPlanar's nominal effective mass is 11g (varying slightly depending on which counterweights are used). A 901 with mounting hardware weighs approximately 10g and it has a compliance spec of 9 cu. To find their theoretical resonance frequency R we solve for the following formula:
R = 159/(SQRT((M+m)xC)) where:
M = effective mass of arm
m = mass of cartridge and hardware
C = compliance of cartridge
R = 159/SQRT((11+10)x9)
R = 11.57 Hz
This theoretical prediction was empirically confirmed on my TriPlanar VII/Shelter 901 combination. On the HFN&RR test record's resonance tracks I observed resonance frequencies of 11 Hz, + or -1. Not perfect but certainly acceptable.
You'll get slightly better bass and dynamics from your 901 by making the arm's effective mass as high as possible. To do this, use the bevelled weight (pushed all the way forward) plus the LIGHTEST donut-shaped weight that will balance the cartridge and give you the desired VTF. Using a LIGHTER c/w farther from the pivot INCREASES effective mass. IME the benefit will be slight but audible.
That said, I don't know why you're seeing visible shaking of the arm on non-warped records. I certainly never observed that in the year or more that I used my 901. Dogpile's suggestion to check the VTA tower set screw was a good one.
His suggestion to try a ZYX was also one I agree with, when you can. The TriPlanar is worthy of far better cartridges than a Shelter 901. A TriPlanar/UNIverse combination has proven synergistic and immensely pleasing for many people, including myself. Any ZYX from the Airy 2 upward will easily outplay a 901 on this arm.
Good luck,
Doug
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Dogpile,
The formula works in both planes of course. If your cartridge has different V and H compliance, like a ZYX, run the formula twice.
The usual reason to check system resonance frequencies, whether by math or by test record, is simply to expose gross mis-matches - though frankly those are rare these days. Resonance frequencies won't tell you how a cartridge and arm will synergize and make music. Only listening will reveal that.
You do raise an interesting question though. I wouldn't assume either direction is less (or more) critical, but they are different. It might be theoretically desirable to have a higher R on the vertical axis and a lower R on the horizontal one.
Warps and floor-borne vibrations are largely vertical and fall mostly below 6Hz, so a slightly higher vertical R would help us avoid those. Some musical frequencies go as low as 16Hz and they are somewhat more horizontal, so we want horizontal R high enough to avoid them. I suppose a vertical R of 12-14Hz and a horizontal R of 8-10 Hz might be "ideal".
This would require either that the cartridge have a very non-linear suspension or that the arm have much higher effective mass on the horizontal axis than on the vertical. There are a few arms like that: air-bearing tangential arms and a few pivoted arms like the Dynavector 505/507 or a Twl-modded OL or Rega. Thanks to its relatively high horizontal inertia, my Twl-modded OL Silver was the most dynamic arm I've heard. Leading edge transient speed and extension were better than a TriPlanar, a Schroeder Reference or a Graham 2.2. I'm still impressed by Twl's brilliantly simple invention. |
Tenmus,
I wonder how the azimuth adjustment (or anything else) was damaged on a new arm? I assume repairs will be covered by warranty.
Having to use the VTA tower near the top of its range "might" make it less stable and (let's face reality) the fit of the TriPlanar's VTA mechanism is not its best feature! Any chance of getting a taller armboard?
Since you had the same problem with this cartridge on another arm it does seem likely that the problem is in the cartridge. Shelter's QC is not as good as some, although I've never heard of this particular problem. Many 901's have misaligned cantilevers and/or non-square motors. Mine suffers from both problems (lucky me!) which makes it impossible to achieve decent channel seperation regardless of alignment or azimuth adjustment.
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Piano with vibrato - ouch!
That should not happen with a Shelter 901 on either of these arms.
1) Does this occur on only a few records? If so, are they drilled off-center? That will produce pitch-warbling every time. The only fix is to replace them or widen the spindle holes so you can center them before clamping.
2) If the records are drilled on-center it's probably the cartridge. Try another cartridge (any cartridge) and see if the problem repeats.
QC = Quality Control: methods used to ensure that every manufactured item or business process meets specifications, within defined tolerance limits. (I don't know the equivalent term in French, but it explains why one Exocet will hit the right house while ten Scuds can't even hit the right city!)
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Dogpile,
Excellent suggestion re: the spacer. The TP website even shows them, in black or silver to match the arm. Anyone whose armboard puts the VTA tower in the top half of its range should try one.
André,
Good description of the sound. That helps, and you just gave us three more good clues:
1) the tremolo occurs only at the beginning of sides,
2) the tremolo did not occur or was not audible with an A-N IQ-3,
3) the tremolo does not occur on 200g Decca reissues,
I have a hypothesis which explains #1 and #2. If it's correct then you should hear the tremolo with your friend's DL-103. (Make sure you set VTF to 2.2g or above, as the Denon prefers.) Let us know your results.
If my hypothesis is correct there are ways to solve the problem.
Unfortunately #3 seems to contradict my hypothesis. Do you have a 200g Decca with strong piano attacks at the very beginning of a side? If so, play that with the Shelter 901 and try to cue the stylus as close to the first music groove as possible. (I'm trying to disprove #3!) :-(
Doug |
Raul,
Thank you! - for coming in and trying to help. Like you, I've rarely heard of this problem with good equipment. This is a tough one. No need to apologize. This isn't "my" thread. Everyone should try to help if they can.
The main tonearm problem I can imagine causing this is damaged, dirty or misadjusted bearings. For two tonearms to have that problem (or any one problem) seems unlikely.
The fact that it's audible with the RB900 but more audible with the TP may simply be due to the TP's greater transparency. (Just guessing, I don't know the RB900.)
I am leaning toward this idea: inadequate resistance to stylus drag. Large dynamics and warps both temporarily increase and then decrease drag resistance on the platter. If the platter slows and then quickly comes back up to speed, pitch changes on piano decays would be audible. A stretch and rebound cycle in the elastic drive belt that most PV's use might be involved.
Andre,
If the problem continues with the new/repaired TP, try adjusting or replacing your drive belt. If that helps "some" but not enough, here's the $500 solution...
The PV's I've seen all used elastic belts. The stretch in the belt is meant to absorb motor vibrations and cogging (assuming the motor is AC), but of course the belt may also stretch for a moment due to increased stylus drag from big dynamics or warps. I have tried several elastic belts on my Teres tables. None of them could maintain good speed stability.
I know that a few PV owners were dis-satisfied with this aspect of their rigs. When they tried a Teres motor and belt the problem was solved. The Teres motor is a very quiet, non-cogging (DC) type. There is no need for an elastic belt to isolate it from the platter, so it uses 1/2" (~1cm) wide mylar tape. This results in much better platter/motor coupling, so better dynamics and speed stability. I believe Galibier and Redpoint motors are similar in this respect.
Good luck and keep us posted,
Doug
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Andre,
I think your idea has merit, and it's consistent with my theory.
If stylus drag is slowing the platter and causing your tremolo, anything which alters the amount of drag could alter the amount of tremolo.
We've established that the tremolo is worse after a large dynamic note or a warp. What is similar about these two events? Answer: both of them are trying to deflect the stylus. This requires some force. If the motor/belt aren't stable enough to overcome the resistance of the stylus/cantilever/suspension, the platter may slow.
(Bad tonearm bearings could increase the arm's resistance to rising freely over a warp. This would increase VTF and drag, which is why I thought of it. But since both your arms have the problem to some degree this seems unlikely.)
The amount of stylus drag will vary with cartridge and with setup. Here are some of the factors I can think of:
VTF - higher VTF = more friction (pretty obvious)
Compliance - the stiffer the cartridge suspension the more it resists deflection, greater resistance to deflection = more friction
Stylus profile
- fine line and micro-ridge styli cause the least friction
- elliptical styli cause more
- conical styli cause the most
This is simply a function of the contact area of each stylus type.
Anti-skate - the higher the AS setting, the more friction
Arm height
- arm tube level = normal VTF = normal friction
- arm down at stylus end = higher VTF = higher friction
- arm up at stylus end = lower VTF = lower friction
This ignores changes in VTA/SRA and any effects they may have on friction, but it might explain why you have less tremolo on 200g records than on thin ones. If you haven't raised the arm by the thickness of the record, VTF will be *slightly* reduced and therefore friction will be reduced. (I admit, this is really a stretch.) If those 200g records are less warped than the lighter ones, that would have a larger effect.
Doug |
Bon jour!
Very glad to hear the replacement arm has solved (most of) the problem.
The standard wire on a TP is Discovery (copper). I've never heard a TP with any other wire, so have no comparisons to offer.
Next step: Drive system upgrade? Cartridge?
Regards,
Doug |
Some of my Lp ( most of them are second handed) have a succession of tiny waves Yikes! On these records of course the TP / Shelter still shakes but I think now that it is normal ... I only didn't hear it with the Rega /audio note because it was less transparent and perhaps (???) the TP/Shelter has less tolerance than the Rega / audio note when reading a bad record . Well, the TP is one of the great tracking arms, certainly much better than my OL Silver, which is similar to your Rega. But I don't have any records quite as bad as what you described. The Shelter is quite new... but I effectively already think to go farther perhaps with a Zyx ( wich model to really feel a difference?) or the Shelter 90 X or a Koetsu ( Rosewood ) ...I don't know wich one would match the best the TP A ZYX is a better theoretical match for a TP than a Shelter or Koetsu. But it's also important to ask this: What kind of music do you play? Can you describe your sonic goals? What do you like best (and least) about your 901? You apparently haven't heard a ZYX or Koetsu, but they are very different from a Shelter and also from each other. You will hear major differences between all of these. You tell me that the Tp 's wire is copper , is it a problem if the two next modulation wires( From step up to preamp and from preamp to amplifiers)
are pure silver ( audio note AN V).
Would it be better to have exactly the same wire ( discovery) everywhere? It's certainly not a "problem". It's just a matter of sound. I haven't tried all silver wire so I can't say what differences you would hear. Even those who have tried it might not know how it would sound in *your* system. With wire, tubes, resonance control, cartridge setup and other "tweaks", hearing in your own system is really the only way. |
I defer to Raul re: silver vs. copper wire, since copper is all I've heard. (One exception: copper coil ZYX's are more neutral than silver, and silver is more neutral than gold. This is not what I expected before I demoed them, but it is what I heard. Others have heard the same.) What I can say is that I want a sound wich is the more natural as possible(NO COLORATION at all) with the more details as possible ( no agressivity, no HARSHNESS) .
I am listening to 60% classical and 40% jazz . Well then, the good news is your present setup (901/TP) can be improved on a great deal. The 901 was slightly peaky on every arm I heard it on (except a Schroeder Ref). On a TP VII, Graham 2.2, Basis Vector and modded OL Silver it always overshot on leading edge transients. This gave it a lively but artificial character that would sometimes sound aggressive or harsh. Once you've heard a truly neutral cartridge a 901 becomes almost intolerable. Forget Koetsu. Every one I've heard (up to the RSP) was colored. Many people love the Koetsu sound, but I was always concious of hearing the Koetsu, rather than the vocalists or instruments (especially instruments). The main characteristic is about the opposite of the 901. Transient leading edges are rolled off and smoothed. This makes the sound artificially pleasant, warm or sweet. (The silver and gold coils ZYX's do something similar.) The regulars here all know what I'm going to recommend. Buy yourself a ZYX UNIverse-X-SB. It is a perfect match for your arm, a perfect match for your sonic goals, a perfect match for your musical tastes - all of which I share. Comparing it to a Shelter 901 would be ridiculous. The UNIverse is unimaginably superior. A ZYX Fuji, Airy 2 or Airy 3 would meet your needs better than a 901. A UNIverse will probably meet your needs for as long as you listen to music, or until you wear it out. Please read the reviews linked next to my signature. They will give you many details. |
In your opinion how many hours before retipping a cartridge ? I have not put enough hours on any high end cartridge to know from my own experience. If you search Vinyl Asylum you'll find hundreds of posts from people who have. People report anything from 1,000 to 3,000 hours. In theory, conical styli wear fastest, elliptical styli last longer, fine line and micro-ridge syli last longest. Not all manufacturers retip/rebuild their cartridges. Koetsu, ZYX and some others do. Shelter does not. Aftermarket companies *might* retip a Shelter, but I don't know that for sure. If they won't, then when the stylus wears out the cartridge is a throwaway. How much does it cost for an AIRY 3 and for a UNIverse?
In the US the best prices for a ZYX are from Mehran of SoraSound, who sells here on Audiogon.
- Airy 3 $2,350
- UNIverse $4,950
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1142247849
In other countries an Airy 3 can be bought from the distributor or their dealers. You'd have to ask them their prices.
The UNIverse can *only* be bought from Mehran (see link above). He underwrote its development and has worldwide distribution rights. This is a good thing, not a bad one. Mehran is one of the nicest, most honest and most generous people you will ever meet.
[quote]Do you still use your SUT Bent AUDIO with the UNIverse? We did until two months ago, with quite satisfactory results. Then we got a new preamp with an MC phono stage that's better than the Bent SUT's. See my system for details. The Bent's are very good for the money, but they can be bettered if you spend enough. |
The ideal impedance for the SUT with both AIRY 3 and UNIverse is 6,6 ohm with 0,24 output version ? I meant to write 66 ohms, but that is in MY system. LOMC's are so sensitive to impedance when using an SUT that no one can predict the ideal value for a cartridge in YOUR system. Experimentation is the only way. (Would it be 13,2 ohm with the 0,48 mV version?) 132 ohms, as above x 2, subject to the warning about different systems. How is it possible to adjust so precisely the impedance on the SUT ? By putting a pair of resistors on each terminal. Using resistors in parallel allows for much finer adjustments. Doug P.S. I haven't heard a top linear arm, so no comment. It does make theoretical sense that a cartrdige should last longer, provided alignment is perfect. 5x longer? Who knows? |
Andre,
If you can only choose between 20 ohms or 80, try them both and choose the one that sounds best. I'd bet on 80, but there's no harm in trying both.
What is the stepup ratio (or gain in dB) of your ANS2? That will also effect whether you should go for a low or high output ZYX.
Doug |
Andre, The loading on the Bent's is easily adjustable. The gain is not adjustable without installing a switch or re-soldering, either of which would add a connection in the signal path. You can only buy BentAudio products directly from the company, which is in Canada. They don't have dealers. http://www.bentaudio.comYou may be able to buy the transformers Bent uses in France (Stephens & Billington TX-103's, made in the UK). You'd have to connect them yourself and provide your own shielded cases, resistor sockets, input jacks and shielded output cables with plugs. |
I would be pleased to have your opinion on this precise point regarding only the best way to make the 0,24 mV version working fine . There's a useful preamp gain calculator on this site: http://www.kabusa.comIt will help you estimate the necessary gain for any cartridge. (+ or - 5% from their recommendation is fine in my experience.) In this case, a 0.24mv cartridge needs approximately 63db of gain before the line stage. A 1:10 SUT provides 20db, so your MM phono section must provide the rest. If your MM phono has about 40-46db you'll be fine. |
My old c-j PV11 provided 47 db, nearly identical to your Jadis, and my Bent SUT's are 1:10. That setup was fine.
Your gain control will probably be fairly sensitive, but having ample gain from the SUT keeps tube noise low. It was a good tradeoff in my system.
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Kftool,
The normal setup for a TriPlanar has the chamfer pointing toward the arm bearings, not away.
Assuming proper setup, there is no reason for a TP/Shelter to "shake badly", on any record. If the problem is as bad as you describe, changing counterweights and counterweight positions is not the solution. The effects of those adjustments are fairly subtle.
Tenmus' problem was only resolved with a replacement arm. I'd suggest contacting your dealer or Tri Mai. If I had to guess, I'd guess the bearings might be misadjusted. But that is not a user adjustment.
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Andre,
I partially agree with Raul and partially disagree:
- if you are looking for the very best phono performance and,
- if you are willing and able to spend enough money then,
- an SUT is not the way to go.
I have bettered my Bent/c-j setup, but it cost me about $6K to do it. That was for a privately designed and built preamp that is not sold commercially. If it were it would retail for $10K+ and it would be a bargain, since it easily beats commercial units costing a lot more than that. Raul's preamp is also a private design/build. I have not heard it but I expect it also sounds magnificent, better than any SUT. But that's not available to the public either, and it would probably cost more than mine if it were.
These private builds are better than most if not all commercial phono and line stages. Mine has been A/B'd against Lamm, Klyne and other top names, and it beats them all. I expect Raul's would too. The problem is finding a serious designer to work with. (If you were in Mexico or the USA it would be easy, Raul or could introduce you.)
If your budget is limited there are two reasonable approaches:
- use a MM or HOMC, as Raul suggests
- use a LOMC with SUT or head amp
I was very happy with the second approach. Since it cost a lot of time and money to beat it, I think it's viable and so do many other people. The pleasure I got from several LOMC's would never have happened without the Bent's, or something like them. I would regret it if I'd missed that.
Doug |
Dear Doug: +++++ " Probably the most Colibri-like " +++++
Do you mean that this one has " spark " over the others ? Dear Raul, If I understand what you mean by "spark", I'd say yes. The silver and (especially) the gold UNIverses lack a bit of necessary "spark". They are a bit too polite (only a little for the silver). They sound "pleasant" but they don't quite sound "alive". Some people enjoy a bit of artificial smoothing but it reminds me I'm listening to a stereo and not to live music. The copper UNIverse does not do this. It is the most honest and therefore the most lifelike of the three, just the right amount of "spark" compared to live. I remember Mikelavigne especially liked that about his Colibri - and between the three UNIverses the copper does this best. Regards, Doug |
Doug,could you enlighten me,as to the differences between the ZYX Univ "silver vs copper",as this is of interest to me?Thanks,in advance. SirSpeedy, I've had three UNIverses in my system: copper, silver and gold coils. (Gold is by special order, Mehran doesn't stock them.) The price is the same for all three IIRC. The sonic differences were precisely the opposite of what I expected, precisely the opposite of what electrical conductivity would lead anyone to expect. COPPER Most neutral, least colored, comes closest to achieving live microdynamics, reproduces natural waveforms the best. Probably the most Colibri-like of the three UNIverses (remembering Mikelavigne's comparison). Easily my favorite and Paul's. Requires the most careful attention to VTF and especially VTA/SRA. No gain without the pain. SILVER Slightly warmed/smoothed, almost Koetsu-ish, which means we didn't like it at all. Mehran sells about as many of these as copper and many people love it. Just not our cup of tea, we do not tolerate rolled off transients. Cello and Vetterone also prefer the copper, but if this is the kind of thing you like, you'd like it! GOLD Very warmed/smoothed, more Koetsu-ish than a Koetsu. Personally it made me puke, but gold resists harsh chemical conditions well so it survived the short visit and the trip back to Mehran! Grado fans might enjoy it, or someone with a terribly edgy system that needed taming. We prefer accuracy at the source and fine tuning later if need be, but YMMV as always. It took me forever to puzzle out why superior conductors created inferior results, but it's obvious if you forget electricity and consider the whole picture. Silver is denser than copper and gold is denser still. Extra mass on the cantilever means reduced transient speed and rolled off waveforms. It's like Twl's HIFI mod, mis-applied. Greater inertia on the tonearm increases stability, greater inertia on the cantilever impairs stylus freedom. For me, this A/B/C comparison settled any argument about HO vs. LO MC's. Here were three identical MC cartridges, all of them highly resolving, the only difference being the coil material. The lowest mass coils produced notably more accurate results even though they were inferior from an electrical standpoint. End of argument. If the stylus can't trace the groove right it doesn't matter how well the electrons flow. |
Raul,
I'm not saying any HOMC will be worse than any LOMC. That would be silly, comparing apples and oranges. But given the same manufacturer and model, the HO version will tend to be less accurate and less dynamic than the LO version. That's all.
Now if I could just learn to puke while swimming in a tuxedo... |
I see where the ZYX Web site cites both silver and copper with the same coil wire diameter (.035mm) and same weight (5.0gm)
If both cartridges weigh the same and have the same wire diameter, maybe its not extra mass on the silver's cantilever that accounts for the sonic differences. You're reading too much into that 5.0g weight specification. First, it's only nominal. I've weighed six ZYX's to the closest 0.01g and they were all different. The variations were larger than could be accounted for by any differences between the coils. Second, a specification to the nearest .1g is too imprecise to capture any coil variations. You'd have to go out several more decimal places to measure that. Third, even if you did that, variations in other components would swamp coil variations. The coils are so tiny compared to the rest of the cartridge that the only way to know anything useful about their mass/weight would be to measure or calculate it directly. Coil weight cannot be deduced from overall cartridge weight, no matter how accurately that is measured. Maybe its fewer windings of the heavier metal. (??) ).
Could a different number of windings between silver and copper yield different signals? Given identical magnets, more windings = higher output. Since the output of each cartridge is the same, the number of windings should be the same. Good questions, but I think my hypothesis is still valid. |
Ken,
Sota has had compatibility issues with the TriPlanar on some lower model tables with wood plinths and recessed armboards, but there should be no issues on a Millenium, other than the goof you already discovered of course. Geoff Husband of TNT-Audio used a Millenium for his review of the TriPlanar without any problems.
A spindle-to-pivot dimension of 235.5mm would put a Shelter at the very end of the slots, assuming you could align it at all. Perhaps that made things unstable enough to cause your vibration. Let's hope a properly drilled armboard will resolve the issue.
Best of luck,
Doug |
Dan,
I think it was a 2.0mm error, but your points are well taken.
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