Megasam - what is the approx weight of the Symposium shelf. From what I have heard it seems to have a damping strategy, but just how light/rigid is it? I have the impression that it is perhaps medium mass, between the Neuance and the BDR or Polycrystal. |
You misunderstand me Sean. My reference to up-pointed spikes was the interface between the rack and the shelf. The two reasonable ways to do this is with up-pointed spikes or a soft bumper of some kind. I was referring to the fact that up-pointed spikes (while working well with say MDF), did not work so well with the Neuance (nor does it work well with Corian). I agree that up-pointed cones sound terrible under components. |
I really like the new Patricia Barber - "Nightclub" is it? Have not heard the Burns Sisters but will check it out. I have driven my self to distraction auditioning different shelf materials, different racks, different interfaces between rack and shelf and different footers. You are right Subaruguru - the permutations are endless. But I really have felt that what I have used previously (most things under the sun it seems) have been letting my system down. This is because trying different things would shift the result quite noticeably. Anyway, my theory is - light, rigid, releasing its energy quickly and yet damped so that energy release is not peaky. The Neuance is very very close to that ideal, in a way that no other shelf I know of is - even the ones I have only read about, such as the BDR and Polycrystal shelves (too much mass to work I reckon). Right now I am getting really good results from the Neuance, significantly better than anything else I have ever tried. I am using a sand filled welded steel rack. The Neuance sits on small, thin hard rubber pads, that really don't compress more than a gnat's whisker, and then the component sits on the Neuance using only conventional small hard rubber feet. With any other shelf, this would sound blurred, and would be improved upon by either using up-pointed spikes between rack and shelf, of using a footer like Walker or BDR cones, or Vibrapods. But the Neuance sounds vibrant, balanced, very detailed, and I am just loving the music that I am hearing. Fancy footers make it sound worse, ie. destroys the balance and overaccentuates detail. I am getting two more Neuance shelves in the new year and am very confident I am on the right track. |
Alexc, I find the E-A-R feet to be even-handed and better than any stock rubber feet, and more neutral than Vibrapods. Certainly, I prefer to use them rather than any of the cones I possess, now that I use welded steel racks supporting Neuance shelves. But I have been experimenting with home-made roller-bearings and they are very promising under the CD player, but not under my amps. |
Hi Ernie. I was wondering when you would try the Neuance. Before I make any further comments, I should point out that the effect of the Neuance changes quite dramatically over the first week. And if you play around with footers, cone direction or spikes during the early weeks then it takes even longer. I know because I made that mistake myself. When you first put the Neuance in place it will immediately sound warm and woolly. It will then tighten up over a period of a couple of days, but will sharpen up too much, flattening mid-range textures and become irritating right in the middle of the spectrum of violins. At this stage you will feel like you definitely did the wrong thing, but to salvage something from your investment you will get this overwhelming urge to play with footers to fix the problem. But if you have more self-control than I, and just LEAVE IT ALONE! - then the upper-mid resonance goes away. What you are left with is truly fantastic. So when I read some of your comments Ernie I wondered whether you had not left the Neuance in place long enough. |
OK - now for how to use the Neuance. I tried almost everything and found out the hard way that if you want a truly great result you - use a light rigid steel rack, you do NOT fill the rack with anything, you spike the rack firmly to the floor, you put threaded spikes into the top of your rack to support the Neuance on spikes. Don't use any fancy footers under the component and don't mass load the component. Just do this and leave it for a week, and then evaluate it. If you do not end up with a great result at the end of the week then I will eat my hat. I know a lot of people have found benefits from sand-filling, mass-loading, sitting components on bladders and using fancy footers. I know because I have been there and done that, more than once. But they are all just band-aids and no substitute for doing it right. The light/rigid/damped idea is the best way to go because it results in far less smearing, thereby giving better PRAT and resolution. The problem for me has always been that I could not find a product that followed the light/rigid principles successfully. The main problem was always the shelf. MDF is just not good enough and neither is glass. This is why the Neuance is such a breakthrough for me - finally I have been able to realise the promise of the light/rigid theory. Using the Neuance as I have described will allow you to hear your components for what they are - and they are maybe much better than you think. If you want to then tailor the sound you can play with footers, but all you will be doing is adding resonance and smearing to emphasise or de-emphasise one part of the spectrum - the result being a loss of PRAT and resolution, so you need to be judicious with the footers you use. I know I am sounding really dogmatic about this, but I really have played around with this issue a lot, and know a breakthrough when I hear one, and I know the pain I went through attempting to use the Neuance in ways that did not work. |
Ernie it sounds to me like you are using cones between the Neuance and a wooden rack. If so then you will not be getting the best out of the Neuance. If you can get a hold of a welded steel rack with spikes to support the Neuance you will get a much better result. For what it is worth (which may not be much), I tried the Neuance sitting on metal cones on a wooden shelf at one point and concluded that the cones sounded best if pointed down, not up. But the sound got better if a small sub-table (spiked of course) was used between the wood and the Neuance. The other issue I hesitate to raise is the Red Dawn - I reckon you should at least try something in its place as I have always found it to be too lean through the mids and a little gritty on top. As to mass-loading - what you are doing is adding energy storage (and therefore smear) to lower the resonant frequency of the transport's box. First just throw all the mass-loading away and try the Neuance as I have described - including just letting it settle for a week. If you must, you could then add a small amount of damping sheet to the top-plate. |
Glad to hear that Ernie. You were probably experiencing a peakiness in your previous set-up that gave a persistent coloration, that persistence leading to fatigue. How are you using the Neuance? |
Thanks Megasam. It sounds like the Symposium, at 7 lbs, is somewhere closer to the BDR and Polycrystal than the Neuance. The heavy/damped shelves can give the best result in terms of neutrality, and clever design can shift smear out of the mid-range. But I find, because they are massy, then they still release the energy slowly somewhere. Usually up top and down below, reducing top-end air, speed of leading edges up top, and slowing upper to mid bass. The light/rigid approach does not suffer such problems but is a lot harder to make sure that it is neutral. There is no perfect answer, just better implementations. I still reckon that light and rigid, yet damped is the ideal. The fact that the Neuance pursues this ideal with a fair degree of success is what draws me to investing in it. But I don't claim it is perfect. My comments are not intended to put down the Symposium - that would be entirely unfair as I have not even heard it - just to explain where my thinking is on this topic. |
Oh and by the way, you get a significant improvement if you use one rack per component - not always practical, but well worth it when you go down the "light and rigid" path. The Mana method of stacking racks works very well too. |
I have changed nothing in the system recently, and have just left the Neuance in place now for some weeks. It may be the weather (warm and humid - sorry, just had to find an excuse to remind you guys it is summer in the better half of the world), but the sound has gone gradually up a notch - still fast and articulate, but somehow more tonal color. The effect is quite noticeable, and so maybe the Neuance changes subtly for a while. Ernie, I know you are attached to the Red Dawns, but that is where I suspect the leanness is coming from. But you will be surprised how the Neuance lets more and more tonal color through as it settles in - this includes leaving the shelf in place and the component in place - no playing!. But I reckon the first thing you should do is try the E-A-R feet Ernie - they will reduce distortion and add warmth and fullness to the sound, without any loss of detail or speed - and will remove at least some of the leanness you refer to. Just make sure you get the right feet for the weight of your component. If your component is on the cusp between the two sizes, then go for the larger feet. |
