I don't think my point was very clear, so I didn't mean the different costs of tube power.
If I'm looking for a low power amp to drive a pair of Horning Aristoteles ($11K) or Rethm Maarga loudspeakers ($8.5K), for example, am I smart by going with a Red Wine Audio 15 (15 watts = $1,500) or a Tron Telstar (12 watts = $40,000)?
I understand diminishing returns, but the recommendations that I've read about seem to support lower cost super value solutions. I'm trying to find out if this is BS, or if SQ value is for real in the low power amplifier market. |
Jaybo,
My questions aren't so much about choice of speakers as about if there are relatively low-watt amps that can equal the SQ of much more expensive choices.
I am heading in the direction of sensitive speakers in the 96 to 99dB range, but my current amp is a 6550 35-watter.
I happen to love the sound of the Hornings and have listened to many speakers of different types from multiple shows. The Horning sound is still my personal favorite after three years of listening. However, I always hear the Hornings paired up with $20K to $40K amps. There also seems to be a movement away from Lowther drivers and I got caught up in threads and reviews about the ex-Lowther-based Rethm speakers. I have not heard these yet.
I was at the 2011 show in Montreal where I heard the Voxativ Amppegio speakers which caught my attention. For me, those fit my ears pretty well. I would find out that these cost $30K, so that wasn't going to happen. After finding out that these speakers received Stereophile's Product of the Year for 2011, I read a review in Six Moons where the Rethm Maargas were preferred over the Voxativ in a head-to-head listen.
In the Six Moons article, the Red Wine Audio Signature 15 integrated amplifier was claimed to be an excellent match for driving the Rethm driver. As this amplifier is only $1,500, I became curious if others out there have had excellent results with lower-cost/low-watt designs.
|
Thanks, Almarg.
I prefer to list only new equipment for the purpose of this thread, and because I only purchase new equipment with the exception of cables.
Updated List:
Loudspeakers:
Horning Aristoteles
Rethm Maarga
Amplifiers:
Note: I realize some models will be integrated, so a plus IMO. I put a few on the list that I know about.
MiniWatt N3
Red Wine Audio Signature 15
Yamamoto (Model? Under $4K?)
Déjà Vu 2A3 (Under $4K?)
Audioprojekte CA10
FirstWatt SIT (Under $4K?)
Atma-Sphere (Any under $4K?)
Traformatic Aries |
Thank you everyone for your insight and personal experiences.
Living in the more conventional world of multi-driver solutions, my belief system for amplifiers was that you get what you pay for. This was unraveled somewhat with the amp Sam Kim built for me. For me, a step up in SQ for less money.
For someone who loves the Horning sound, I was taken at a show when the amp was switched to the $3,000 SS Audioprojekte CA10. I realize, if I spent more time comparing the Audioprojekte against the default Tron, I would probably pick the Tron. Still, the rule of diminishing returns seemed to almost disappear when compared to differences with other types of audio components. I consider the CA10 a super value, and it was the reason I started to investigate the subject of this thread.
I agree and understand that the amplifier must be dead quiet in order to achieve the sound that we seek. At the same time, I don't want to give up the "life" that great tube amps fill into that dark space. For example, I was put off by a $100K Krell system with the quietest and darkest of backgrounds. Add to that great pinpoint imaging, but with a flaw. The players floated in their own bubbles with no life (air) between them. This is my own opinion, but I became bored as the sound seemed cold and uninvolving.
Okay, probably by now you know what I like and prefer. Additionally, I have a smallish room (16 X 14') and require an intimate sound. Even so, by gravitating to the Hornings and Rethms it's also obvious that I require some bass. The woofers of the Rethm are powered, but the Horning woofers are not. Perhaps, this makes the Rethms easier to drive with a more cost-effective solution.
While Sam Kim's amp is brilliant, and he can build me any push-pull triode that I can think of, I'm not sure about the needed silent background for these highly revealing drivers. |
When considering an amplifier, I would require at least three inputs. |
Hi Charles,
I am welcoming suggestions and thank you for yours. I will keep the First Watt on the back burner.
Single drivers and simple circuits seem to go hand-in-hand. There are only a handful of different ways to design simple amplifier circuits. One can complicate the design by adding tricks to make their's unique, but that's getting away from the purity of sound IMO.
This tells me that great sounding low-watt amplifiers can be built inexpensively and this has already been revealed. Other things that I've come to believe, for example, is that point-to-point wiring is ultimately superior to circuit board wiring. Again, this is my opinion. However, good looks and other features drive up the costs for boutique designs. I don't want an ugly duckling, but a compromise seems reasonable.
I like to challenge what I've become comfortable with. When I get my speakers of choice, I will use my current Sam Kim amp to see how it does for noise and SQ. Sam can also build me a low-watt design, but a 300b or 845 may not be Sam's choice. This is why I'm seeking everyone's help, so I have more viable options and can narrow down my listening when I'm ready to get serious. |
Thanks Charles! Yes, research and patience.
I don't know if this thread will hold up, but it would be great if Horning/Rethm owners could chime in with their own amplifier solutions. Or, if we got more contenders for lower cost/low-watt amplifiers regardless of the high sensitivity speaker type and/or brand.
That would surely help with my research and definitely my patience.
It seems that most boutique dealers are located on the E. & W. Coasts, making it difficult for this Colorado guy to hear stuff up close and personal...Except for RMAF, which is not so up close and personal.
My goal, is to get a low-watt Sam Kim amp and compare it to a few winners that I've researched (I consider this research), and then pick my keeper. |
Atmasphere,
You are right of course, as your amps have stood the test of time and are highly regarded. No debate there, as some expensive amps do deliver the goods and sound superior. This, probably relates to the quality of parts used that cost a pretty penny, but provide the final percentage of return. I understand, and thought I relayed the value of spending the extra bucks with my reference to the $40K Tron that I love. I know that you have far less expensive designs.
It's an intersting hobby, and for some of us we enjoy finding less expensive solutions that excel to fit our personal high expectations and budgets of what's wonderful. For example, Sam Kim does not install Auricaps or the like. Instead, he cuts open different runs of quality capacitors and he knows by inspection, which ones will sound the best. This is what does it for me, because I'm a retired Locksmith who doesn't have unlimited funds. However, there are reviewers who expect the quality of parts to be there. This is why I rely on all of you for quality feedback. |
This is excellent information, and for my smallish room the Aristoteles were recommended by Jeff (HWS). Likewise, I was considering the Maargas as a possible contender, but I would have to travel to NY to hear them.
The Aristotels use two rear eight inch woofers in push-pull. |
Charles,
I've heard the Horning Eufrodites driven by the Tron Telstar 211 SE. The Eufrodites use four eight inch woofers where the Aristoteles just have two, so they were recommended for my room size.
I think a trip to NY to hear both the Horning and Rethm on the same day would be smart. |
Like Trelja, I hold onto my equipment for a long time, so its nice to have updates available. Thats always a plus.
I would like to create a list of possible candidates for low-cost/low-watt amps, and set a range for cost. I will not rule out the MiniWatt, but Im thinking the low end should start at $1,500. I would also like to set the high end at $4K, because I know that Sam Kim can build me an amp for that, and it would be his best design for my speaker of choice.
I would also like to add to my sensitive loudspeaker list, but keep any additions within the range of the Maarga and Aristoteles ($8,500 - $11,000).
Loudspeakers:
Horning Aristoteles
Rethm Maarga
Amplifiers:
Note: I realize some models will be integrated, so a plus IMO. I put a few on the list that I know about.
MiniWatt N3
Red Wine Audio Signature 15
Yamamoto (Model? Under $4K?)
Déjà Vu 2A3 (Under $4K?)
VAC Renaissance (I cant find this?)
Audioprojekte CA10
FirstWatt SIT (Under $4K?)
Atma-Sphere (Any under $4K?)
Traformatic Aries
Sam's Audio Labs |
Thanks, Trelja.
Bravo, a good dosing of tangible results through hands-on research! Well done.
As I quickly and loosely threw a number of amplifier contenders into a heap, it sounds like you might be able to help me discard and/or re-sort the list to better match the two and possibly additional speaker models.
As with many audiophiles, I love music without an engineering degree, so my ears tell all. Your contribution, however, makes me wish I had at least finished my correspondence course with the Cleveland Institute of Electronics. Funny, I got to the part about vacuum tubes and threw my hands up. Too bad, it was back in the seventies and I had no one to hold my hand, like on AudiogoN!
Seriously, this forum thread is not all about me. Hopefully, it can be used as some small reference to others of what types of low-watt amps match up nicely with types of HE speakers. A plus, and the part that is related to me at this time, is finding lower cost wonders to match up with my speakers of interest.
I live in Colorado, so I have access to RMAF. This is where I met Jeff (HWS) whos a great guy and my main dealer of the last three years. I also grew up in NYC and worked downtown, so I am very familiar with the surroundings.
Again, thank you for your help and commentary.
Kenny |
Thank you Ozarktom, I will check out the amp. |
Trelja,
Well, I haven't heard the Aristoteles because they haven't been at the RMAF show in Denver when I've gone, but got to hear their big brother the Eufrodites. I also have not heard the Rethm Maargas, so it makes sense to go to NY to hear both.
I'm sure that Jeff and Gideon can recommend amplifiers that won't break the bank.
Thanks for the invite to PA, but it will most likely be a short trip. My room is brick, plaster, and hardwood floors, so is that what you also have?
My wife and I were in NY (Queens) for ten days in the old neighborhood. Unfortunately, we had to take care of family business and could not get around, however, we feasted on local Italian every night. Yum. |
Thanks David.
I've been living with conventional mid-nineties box speakers, well, since the mid-nineties. I have gotten years of enjoyment from them. There were multiple rooms with Dadalus speakers at the RMAF 2010 show where I also heard the Horning and Aspara speakers that Jeff was demonstrating.
I'm not a classic horn person, as they don't quite fit my ear. I try, and try again, but I can't fall in love with Klipsch, for example, and Jeff's Aspara offering did not quite do it for me either. I also struggled with "all" the box speaker offerings at the show. I want to blame the rooms somewhat, but my disappointment remained consistent.
For whatever reason (hybrid?), I fell for the Hornings. I must admit that Jeff had a large suite and he's a wizard at setup. Still, I can't get that sound out of my head while all the other sounds at the show have long faded. It was the haunting and intimate spatial presentation which won me over. Not as haunting, but intimate, open, and refreshing, were the Voxativ Ampeggios I heard in Montreal 2011. Equally refreshing in Montreal were Devore's Orangutans. However, with all of these choices, I didn't miss LF extension as much with the Hornings.
I'd like to get back to amplifiers, and have added the < $4K Almarro 318B to my list. Here is the revised list, so far:
Loudspeakers:
Horning Aristoteles
Rethm Maarga
Amplifiers:
Note: I realize some models will be integrated, so a plus IMO.
MiniWatt N3
Red Wine Audio Signature 15
Yamamoto A-08S
Déjà Vu 2A3 (Under $4K?)
Audioprojekte CA10
Traformatic Aries
Triode TRV-A300SE
Almarro 318B |
