Agree with Bo on lack of depth. And my system pics are out of date regarding speaker placement, I now have them on a different wall and set out from the back wall quite a bit. My equipment list is correct, but not the layout of the room. I'll upload some new pics tonight. I did follow some rules of thumb for distances from back and side walls.
Placing the sub between the speakers would be difficult, the room isn't that large and the sub would be too close to listening position IMHO.
Haven't done room treatments yet, but sitting position is very close to back wall, so need treatment at first reflection points and back wall.
Bo1972, what other amp brands have you sold that outpace Rotel? |
yes I have considered tubes in the pre. I don't think my speakers would work with a tube amp. I have been toying with the idea of picking up a set of Focals someday, the tube amp might follow that.
I updated my system pics to show the new location for the rack and speakers. |
Trust me when I tell you that I have hundreds of well-recorded, spatially deep and wide recordings in many different genres. I don't listen to hip hop. It's not the source. I do get a wide soundstage with detailed imaging, just want to make it better. |
I have looked at prima Luna's self-biasing amps, these have 4ohm taps and I think would push the quads better than some other tube products. But I am worried about a tube amp's ability to push my speakers. 6ohm nominal, 89db sensitivity. |
Minorl - a few quick ones that are in constant rotation on my system, I doubt many here have heard of these artists (mostly ambient and IDM here, be warned):
"Tesseract Redux" from Coppice Halifax's Outward residence
"Devil and the Deed" from Yeasayer's Fragrant World
"Terraforming" from Hans Zimmer's Man of Steel soundtrack
"Numb" from Andy Stott's Luxury Problems
"Bardo Thodol" from Demdike Stare's Tryptych (Disc 2)
"Place Gun To Head Airlines" From Proem's You Shall Have Ever Been (Disc 2)
"Lawk" from Funkarma's Solid State |
Thanks for all the comments. My speakers are multiple feet
away from both the back and side walls. I have also toed
them in toward my seating position. Have also tried crossing
them in front of seating position, I don't like that as
much.
I have acoustical foam on order, simple wall coverings from
the foam factory. They are not up yet, but I have
experimented for months with speaker placement. I have the
system sounding as good as it can in the room, IMHO. Now I
want to get to the next level, which means ... *updating
components* ... I should have an opportunity to make a
purchase in a couple of months.
I have read the recommendations for tube amps, VTL and Rogue
are the only brands I have seen mentioned. I suggested Prima
Luna, but no response to this, is Prima Luna not a good
brand? I can get these amps serviced locally. and what about
"tube biasing?" what is that and how often must I
do it, and how much does it cost? Tube amps sound like they
need maintenance, one reason why I have not gotten into
them. Plus tubes wear out...
Can we shift the discussion to the following:
tube amps vs full class A solid state like older Classe or
older Krell?
anyone who has my speakers and is getting fantastic 3D
imaging, what gear do you use?
OR...***possible speaker upgrade***...?!? (if my Rotel is
sufficient...) I might audition the new focal Aria line... |
Atmasphere, The right speaker was out of place because of several re-alignments due to impromptu visits from friends, auditioning Sky ICs vs my current King Cobras. I re-positioned the speakers last Sat night, using a tape measure from the seating position and side/back walls, and this was previous to the phase experiments. Imaging improved, and the late-night phase swaps tell me that when I had the speakers on the long wall earlier this year, they were hooked up out-of-phase. Having moved them months ago to the short wall to get better distance from the speakers, the hook up was phase-correct, so I was hearing a totally different (...and correct) soundstage compared to the previous setup.
Even with all these improvements, the image still hovers around the speakers, it's wide but there is not much depth to it. Future experiments will include both sound treatments *and equipment upgrades*...my timelines are measured in months and years, not days and weeks, gentlemen. |
Well Saki maybe I should take a wall down. That has a very low WAF, I can guarantee you...I've already brought it up a couple of times...the previous owner finished out the basement in a a very inefficient way. He put the bathroom right in the middle, assuring that the rest of the rooms could only be square and small or long and narrow. Grr.
Bobnegi, thanks, I did get a little hot after being told to "settle down." I've been reading a lot of tubes vs solid state threads, and nerves get stretched pretty taught on those. I'm thinking of starting one, but I don't know... |
I think my DAC actually inverts phase, I think I read that somewhere. So to invert phase - I swap the output cables coming out of the DAC, right? Or do I swap the speaker cables at the speaker end? Or does it matter?
My only concern with vintage tube gear is maintenance. Where can I get that stuff serviced?
I am interested enough in tubes to definitely try them. I have a lot of research to do to familiarize myself with the different brands.
@ Raymonda: Wild Beasts, Proem, Coldplay, Bola, Coppice Halifax, Muslimgauze, Fuck Buttons, Miles' Birth of the Cool, Yeasayer, Demdike Stare, Andy Stott, The Berlin Philharmonic's recording of Holst's Planets, Amon Tobin, Haxon Cloak, various Beethoven symphonies conducted by Karajan, James Blake, numerous Hans Zimmer soundtracks, Moderat, Om, Love and Rockets and even Vampire Weekend, I consider all of these to be high-quality level recordings or artists who produce them. |
To everyone: thanks for the posts. And I'd like to note what I've taken from this thread:
room treatments and speaker positioning were mentioned up front, the positioning is something I've toyed with and will continue to toy with, and the room treatments aren't up yet but I'll report back when they are.
Don't discount the equipment suggestions, I've written that I want to try tubes and I cannot do that without some brand knowledge, I am well-researched in the world of solid state, but not tubes. I need manufacturer suggestions that have a record of great 3d sound and reliability.
All of the room treatments and speaker positioning will only get me so far, I know this, and I was able to fix some things with speaker adjustments of scant inches, which surprised me. But I still won't get to audio Nirvana with the Rotel, and maybe not the Halo P3 either. I've had the power amp for 4-5 years and I'm itching for an upgrade. I want to purchase something that will take the sound in the correct direction.
Sheesh this post is getting longer than I thought it would be.
Thanks to Atma Sphere for the phasing thing, I had the system hooked up wrong previously and now I know what was going on.
I'm STILL going to upgrade the amp or the pre or both! Maybe not soon, but it will happen...Thanks again everyone. |
So interesting things happened last night. I found the right
speaker was out of position a few inches, so I fiddled with
it using a tape measure. Now I have both of them about 28
inches from the back and side walls. There is about 6 feet
between them and I sit 8 feet from either speaker. Imaging
returned, soundstage grew in width and height, but still
hovers around the speakers.
I listened for about 2 hours, enjoying the improvement my
tweaks gave, then I tried inverting the phase on the left
speaker. The soundstage wrapped around my left shoulder and
behind me. I was pretty stunned at the difference this made.
Later I listened with only the right speaker out of phase,
the center of the image traveled out from between the
speakers and sat just right of center in the room.
I used to have my system on the long wall of the room, I
swapped it to the short wall earlier this year, to get a
little more distance between the listening position and the
speakers. The imaging and soundstage I had on the long wall
was lost. I have been chasing that sound ever since, I think
now I know that one speaker was hooked up out of phase on
the long wall, accidentally. This actually sounds really
nice for certain electronic music, but it makes tracks with
vocals sound a little strange. Haven't tried classical with
this yet.
So, no one hooks up one speaker out of phase on purpose, do
they? This is an incorrect hook-up, right? |
I'll post some of my reference digital tracks later this week, might not get a moment in the listening room for a while. Kids, work, wife, etc etc etc |
Bobnegi, my listening position is placed per goldern triangle, and don't tell me to settle down, I'll spend my money how I like. |
A bit of an update my my Quad 22L2's specs, I find the manufacturer's information lacking and went hunting on the internet, there seems to be a consensus to the following:
Sensitivity: 89 db/1 W/1 m
Nominal impedance: 6 ohms
Impedance peaks: 60-70 Hz 17 ohms; 1-2 Khz 19 ohms
Impedance dips: 80-300 Hz 4 ohms; 6-15 Khz 4 ohms
Just FYI, folks... |
Thanks Atmasphere. I was considering Focal's new Aria 926 (entry level floorstander) as a replacement for my Quad's, I'd always heard Focal's products were super efficient, but this is what I found on their site:
Sensitivity 2.83v/1m 91.5dB
Impedance 8 Ohms nominal, *2.9 Ohms minimum*
You have to go to the 906 bookshelf in the Aria line or the Chorus 816v floorstander to get impedance curves that don't go below 4 Ohms. This makes the Focals look power hungry to me, considering everything I've read... |
Thanks, I'll check him out! |
One last update. I went to Gold Sound in Littleton, and the owner treated me really well. We auditioned Wild Beasts' "Palace" and Peter Gabriel's "Don't give up" on three systems using Focal Aria 926 floorstanders, Cambridge Audio ICs and Kimber Kable speaker cable:
#1 - All Parasound, P5+A21
#2 - Dared Saturn SET amp, 20w class A
#3 - Parasound P5+PrimaLuna Prologue tube amp
#1 and #2 both sounded great. #3 was auditioned right after the Dared, and the soundstage compressed in depth, even got a little "steel-y." This lends weight to the recommendations of tube-pre with a solid state amp, instead of vice versa.
The biggest difference between #1 and #2 was the depth of the soundstage increased a little with the Dared. Sounded more spherical than rectangular, I guess. Also, the Dared is $2200, the Parasound stack is $3600. It was a fun visit. |
