I sold Rotel for over 6 years of time. It is a 2 dimensional brand, it can create maximum 1 metre of depth. Instruments and voices are on one line togheter. |
These days I only sell 3 dimensional sound.
Onkyo is the cheapest brand I know to date which can create a wide an deep stage.
The other brands I use are: Primare and Pass labs.
You can look for a used Primare A30.2 or A33.2
Most brands are 2 dimensional: Marantz, Cambridge, Denon, Yamaha, NAD, Harman Kardon are all 2 dimensional.
* You have to understand that all parts of a set need to be able to give depth. In my tests I have proven that a 2 dimensional brand always will F....up the 3 dimensional stage. For example: a 2 dimensional source will F...up Always a 3D stage.
I call 2 dimensional audio Standard Audio. Because a simple amp of 100 dollar will build the stage the same way. |
Your speakers are not that easy to drive. Maybe you can make a combination with Primare poweramp and Tube pre amp.
It can give you the drive and controle and tube sound togheter with your speakers. |
It is not extrme difficult to drive, but it is not that high either. It is not the fastest in response. That is why you need speed to get a more controlled low freq. |
There are many things to create a more 3 dimensional stage. I think it would be a good thing to mention in an article how to make it more 3D.
At the end you Always will lsiten to all different parts togheter including the acoustic of your room.
An amp with a poor 3D image will not give a huge stage when you will change the reflections of your room.
I have been several times in room with many bass traps ( they spend a lot of money on it) and still have a poor sound.
The brands I did mention I sold for many years and compared to others to know whether it is 2 or 3 dimensional. |
I said it before: buy a used Primare 30.2 or 33.2 and buy a tube pre amp. You will get a combi which is able to give you control, sharp individual focus and a wide and deep stage. And an involving sound. |
"Even a cheap system should image and play depth. More has to do with setup (not just placement of the speakers in the room) than anything else"
When I read this nonsense you don't understand audio.
I have done thousend of tests in more than 16 years of time I do this work. Differences in depth between speakers, amps, pre amps, sources, cables and even conditioners are huge.
I can create a lot of depth even when speakers are placed near the wall. Stuppid remark again. When you use an amp and speakers which can give a wide and deep stage you also can create a deep stage. Roomcorrection makes the stage also deeper, it gives you more accuracy.
Every single tool I test for what kind of image it gives. These differences in depth are big.
When you use those brands which can create more depth, you make it yourself a lot more easy.
Ofcourse when you put speakers more of the wall you get moe depth. But when an amp is poor in depth, you never get a deep stage.
And yes tubes are a great example which often can create a nice deep sound.
At the end there are different ways to create a deep stage. Don't forget that at most shows many demos are flat and are often 2 dimensional. |
I am familiar with OTL. I owned tube amps as well. I sold a lot tube amps as well.
I am always for the best option possible. I love the sound of tube. But I do not want limitations.
That is why I love the sound of Pass Labs. The new .8 series even come closer to tube sound. But the speed and drive are better.
I am always focussed on a sound what is complete as possible. I love classical music. I want all the timbre to be heard of a violin of Cello.
I love the class A sound of Pass Labs. They also can give a wide and deep stage. This space give me the freedom to create the intimate stage within the wide and deep stage. They also are stunning in speed and drive. This is what it makes it more complete. This gives me more quality what I want and need in my sound.
Because a deep and wide stage without an intimate stage is useless.
So what is a 3D sound?
In the past shows with a wide and deep stage often did not convince me. Because I did not get inside the music. Because when instruments and voices are played too big in proportion it is gone.
Even when you have a wide and deep stage with instruments and voices played in realistic proportion you are still not there.
Instruments and voices need to be what I call 'round' This is the air around instruments and voices what make them become round.
The difference is black is huge when you compare old highend cables from the past with the best new ones.
For those who are not familiar with blacks. Blacks is the space between voices and instruments on a recording. It makes instruments and voices more physical apparent.
At this moment I play with 2 pair of Audioquest Wel Signatures. One still needs to be burned in. 500 hours for each cable. I never auditioned a cable which had such big differences in sound and image during the burning in period.
It sets 3D sound to a higher and new level what is even new for me. I will write a review when the 2nd one is burned in. Differences in heights and place where an instruments or voice is standing on the recording give a different harmonic sound/timbre. Listening with these cables influence the emotion a lot. It is a higher level in 3D sound.
A the end there are many parts to create a better 3D sound. One thing I know for sure is that people prefer 3d sound far over 2d sound. |
It is as it is. Maybe it sounds hard, it is not rude. Words can be read differently.
The older Classe amp ( sold them for a long time) have a musical sound and can give a deep and wide stage. The limitation is that individual focus of instruments and voices is not that sharp.
The problem with Krell is that some amps sound really awesome and others sound harsh and more analytical. You need to know the good and bad ones
Pathos make some amps which are not that expensive on the used market. They also have good drive and speed. And they can give a very good 3D stage. |
I don't know what a person talks about depth. I visit people all the time. And believe me most do not have a lot of depth at all. Speakers placed from the wall will not give them a lot more depth. It has to do with the properties of the stuff they own. |
In what kind of time do you life......keep on dreaming!!
what an amature!! |
Audio is all about properties. Togheter they make the stage
including the acoustics.
You use a MF converter. MF also gives a wide and sharp
focus. But is still limited in depth. This is a property it
owns. I sold MF for a long time. I also gave MF shows for
the distributer in my country.
You say: I have a wide stage, but not a lot of depth.
Rotel has similar properties in stage like MF. It is a
little less sharp compared to MF, almost no depth.
The Quad L series do not use the best crossovers to give you
a lot of depth compared to other brands who can in this
price tag.
To get a good deep stage, you need more parts to realize
it. |
Keep on tweaking tom..... |
