Searching for matching(?) Subwoofer solution

Hi @hleeid,

My rig is nowhere near the quality as some you folks here but where I did spend some coin was on the subwoofers. I had owned many SVS subs over these short few years but was never quite satisfied with them. Then doing research as we do when looking to ’upgrade’ I stumbled across the Power Sound Audio or PSA AVS Forum. To make a long story short I ended buying 2 subs from PSA after researching the Vandersteen brand of subs and a bunch of others.

Apparently the ’Vandy’s’ as they are so affectionately called are a well beloved sub here on Gon and elsewhere and this is what Mr. Vandersteen had to say about subwoofers:

’Mono or Stereo Bass

There are significant advantages to using two subwoofers. Modern sources such as streaming, CDs, DVDs, digital high-resolution music files, and Blu-ray Discs maintain full stereo separation to below 20Hz. Summing the channels into a single subwoofer reduces or cancels all the low-frequency information containing phase differences between the channels. Stereo subwoofers reproduce all of the bass information complete with the phase differences that help provide the imaging and location cues we use to place people and things at distinct points in the sound field. Stereo subwoofers also improve linearity on mono as well as stereo sources by coupling the bass to the room at two points and lend themselves to natural placement near the corners where low frequency room gain is often desirable.

Ultimate Multi-Channel

A pair of SUB THREE subwoofers is the premier configuration for high-quality multi-channel home theater systems where the surround-sound processor can be programmed to redirect the LFE (Low Frequency Effects) information to the main speakers. In addition to the benefits of stereo bass, disabling the surround processor’s LFE output often improves the system ’s midrange clarity and articulation. For the ultimate system, additional SUB THREE’s can be added to the surround channels.’

After reading about what Mr. Vandersteen had to say about subwoofers it was good enough for me and researching PSA subs I knew I couldn’t afford the Vandy’s but I could afford dual PSA subs.

One of the owners of PSA is Tom Vodhanel who was/is the ’V’ in SVS subwoofers.

Here are some of the reasons I bought PSA subs:

1) They are very well built.

2) Have very forward engineering.

3) Have a 5 year warranty. Even the used ones in the PSA outlet center. And there is nothing wrong with buying used as they are thoroughly gone through and up to specs and  are very cost effective.

4) Customer service is the best in the subwoofer business.

5) Has a trade up/trade in/trade down policy and not only pays for the shipping TO the customer but pays for shipping the subs BACK to the PSA manufacturing site! This comes in handy when you want to audition at home.

6) They sound damn good too, without that annoying booming sound some sub manufactures have. Just good clear, clean sound.

7) Has many subwoofer choices with multiple price points and all the PSA subs benefit from the company’s same proprietary designs.

Here is the website: https://www.powersoundaudio.com

@cleeds,

My man! I wasn’t going to take the trolls (noble100) bait - but thanks for having my back! The quote referenced is on the Vandersteen website here: https://vandersteen.com/products/vandersteen-sub-three

I also find it interesting that Richard Vandersteen on his Ask Richard website here: https://www.vandersteen.com/support/ask-richard

His latest ask and answer question is:

’Hello Richard, I am thinking of purchasing the Treo CT and using it together with my Audio Kinesis Swarm subs (4 10 inch subs in separate enclosures driven by 2 amps in stereo). Would I be better off using a Dspeaker X4 crossover to crossover the Treo at, say 100 hz or to drive the Treo full range and adjust the subs separately. I see you are using a passive xover in the Quatro at 100hz. Thanks.

Hello,

You need to be careful because you don’t want any digital processing in you signal path going to the Treo CT so I would use our M5-HPB for an 80Hz or 100Hz high-pass. Use whateve3r you use to manage your subs as this should require very little correction because multiple subs automatically give a linier response in the room. This should be amazing as we have always been a supporter of multiple subs.

RV’

The above being said - I have come to enjoy this hobby of hi-fi/audiophile and the sharing of information to learn and have fun and groove with the Aha! moments of audible sonic bliss (almost) everytime I upgrade from learning something I learned from one of you cool hi-fi/audiophiles here.

But I want to make this clear. I do have what is commonly referred to as a life - away from this website and it’s a shame - that a certain person here....needs to get one.

@noble100,

I have never heard of or seen, in my life, and I am at retirement age too as you are and have seen and heard a lot - anything like the psyco bass bable b******t you actually take the time to write here and spew.

@hleeid,

Please don’t be dissuaded from ever posting here again. There really are some cool folks here that are willing and able to answer and share with you in a nice, considerate and courteous manner.

Thank you for your original post question as I got to share some of my very limited experiences (not knowledge) with you and others when trying to decide what subwoofer(s) brand to purchase. Please comeback.

Hi hleed,

I think you’re already on the the right track because you’re just going to have to experiment. Once you figure out where your furniture can and cannot go, you already have an idea of where you want your main speakers, how far apart from each other and how far they should be from their back wall.

There is a misconception that all subs are ’omnidirectional’ only. That is not necessarily true. If you sit in your office chair and close your eyes with you main speakers turned off or unwired and play some music with only your subs you will sense where the subs are being played in your office room with your hearing whether they are coming from the left, right or center of the room with your ears alone and you will feel with your body which part of the room the tones are coming from.

Since I listen to mostly music than use my system for 4K dvd watching I have my front firing subs in the corner of the opposing walls about 4 to 5 inches from the back wall and the outside wall from the subs, if this makes any sense. This way I get a total enveloping of the bass sound in the entire room because they are in opposing corners and you have to leave room for you sub interconnects. This suits me quite well since I’m a bass head.

My subs are front firing and in the same general plane or in line with my main speakers along the same wall. In other words sitting on my couch I’m looking at my mains and subs. In my situation the mains will always be closer to each other than the subs are to each other. Some folks will put a sub directly behind their couch or chair for watching movies to feel the effects of the exploding bomb/space shuttle track rumble. But you also have to have the room for that too. I’ve even known people who didn’t have enough room to put their dual subs in opposing corners or one behind the couch stack them on top of each other, since they had the same footprint! And they actually sound damn good too!

Do you want front firing subs? Or down firing subs? Sealed, vented or ported? Here is a link for you to get a good visual idea of how forward firing, down firing, vented, ported and sealed subs look and there different sizes and price points:

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/subwoofers

You’ve got some decisions to make!

@millercarbon

I completely understand you and appreciate everything you have to say.

But I have to respond to someone who actually has the swarm system and understands it and has a working knowledge of it and basically calls my a lier - without himself doing his own research - I’m going to take up for myself whether you or no one else does. He does the op, this thread and even Duke a disservice. Let me remind you of the lie Tim posted about me:

’I seriously doubt someone as knowledgeable and experienced as Mr. Vandersteen would make the numerous obviously false statements contained in your supposed quote of him you cited above in your last post.

Please verify this quote as valid by referencing your source for this quote. I’m almost certain you’ll be unable to do so, however, and you’ll likely just fail to ever provide any reference, never admitting to your deliberate false quote ...’

What am I supposed to do? I thought we are here to share ideas from one another? In a respectful courteous manner? Am I missing something here? Not make up vicious lies.

This is a small snippet of what I’m calling psycho bass bable bullshit:

’Hello cleeds,

Very interesting that you responded before tyray and that the supposed direct quote from Mr. Vandersteen is actually from his website’s promotional information for the 2W subwoofers.

I read the linked website info and it reads more like the work of a professional advertising copy writer promoting a client’s product that he doesn’t completely understand, which is actually the case, than a knowledgeable and experienced speaker designer sharing his expertise on how his subs are able to take advantage of his knowledge of speaker design and how bass soundwaves behave in a typical home room environment to provide high quality bass reproduction.

The quote from the Vandersteen website referred to by tyray and yourself, listed below, contains too many errors for me to believe that Mr. Vandersteen would vouch for its accuracy. It seems much more likely the numerous errors are the result of an advertising copy writer plying his trade on a subject and product he has a general lack of knowledge about. I seriously doubt Mr. Vandersteen even scrutinized the content of this promotional quote since I doubt he would approve this much misinformation. I’ll explain the errors and my reasoning below after the advertising quote.’ And he goes on and on and on... And you quoted Stevie Wonder?

-Not the science behind the swarm.

And apparently I guess this type of interaction with someone on this thread is okay - if you have the swarm and have read the studies of Earl Geddes. Well I’m here to tell you it’s not.

I did look up this term though:

Psychoacoustic Phenomenon Psuedo Stereo Deep Bass

Apparently it does not exist. Especially when Pseudo is spelled wrong.

I really wanted to ask is this psychoacoustic phenomenon only in playback and the recording studio environment? But I guess I can’t cause I don’t have the Swarm and haven’t fully read the studies of Earl Geddes. 

@hleeid'

'Should I take advantage of the temporarily empty office to lay down carpeting?'

My buddies that have man caves and and not only use their system for playing music but watching movies too - swear by adding carpet.   

@rauliruegas,

When I got first got my front firing vented PSA V1801 subs I hooked up ONE on the left side front corner wall of my listening room and it replaced a down firing (almost vintage) SVS PB12-Plus/2 12.3 subwoofer. I could tell right away the location of that sub. And the same with the previous sub the SVS PB12-Plus/2 12.3 subwoofer. Was it subtle yes, but you could tell.

Not only could I tell the location of the ONE front firing vented PSA V1801 and the ONE SVS PB12-Plus/2 12.3 subs - placed in the far left corner - I could tell, feel, sense, hear, locate or whatever that the sonic wave, force or sound of the down firing sub was coming from the bottom of the down firing sub! There is a difference! I would suspect that is why so many sub manufactures make so many different types of directional firing subs.

Then when I set up the replacement front firing vented PSA V1801 sub I immediately noticed, could tell, feel, sense, hear, locate or whatever that the sonic wave, force or sound was coming out of the front of the sub front firing speaker! The only thing I have to go on is my own empirical experiences.

And that SVS PB12-Plus/2 12.3 sub? I still have it - as I have come to love that thing and the bass it brings! I just have come to like the ’sound’ of a front firing sub better.

I also have to mention that the above subs are beasts! And have a force of sound that can crumble motor in a brick wall and the sheer force (decibels) of the sound is probably what I ’feel’. And maybe I’ve been fortunate enough to actually have experienced a ’quality’ (sub) woofer too.

@audiokinesis

Mr. Duke,

When your Swarm first came out I and bunch of others were impressed at such a brilliant thinking out of the box idea. I completely believed and understood the science behind it. It’s just that when someone attacks, demeans, and literally calls you (me) out with their own psyco bass bable bullshit that is based on untruths and then goes and runs behind your outstanding design - sometimes you just gotta hit a bully in the nose and stand up for yourself.

The attacks here - I suspect are not the first. In fact there may be hundreds of B.S. posts by this poser - directed at others on Gon standing behind and using your Swarm technique - and others, without a leg to stand on his own.