Searching for matching(?) Subwoofer solution
Dear @audiokinesis : "" in which a distrubuted multisub system falls short..." I’m just talking about the myth that we can’t detect the direction for frequencies 80hz down ( two channel with two subs. ) and this is not true. Our brain/body can, @tyray explained twice . What is true is that some people can’t detect it but other can do it. Even with frequencies/instruments that speakers puts at the center of the imaging/soundstage is difficult to detect if the sound comes from the left or rigth speaker. Knowledge/experience to know what to look for is what tell each one of us the true not that myth per se. Inclusive other gentleman posted that not playing music but test tones proved that our ears can detect 50hz. No one knows the whole body/brain abilities on that myth subject when even the scientifics say the human been knows how the brain works only at around 18% of its overall capacity ! ! Audio is surrounded of to many myths many of them by our self ignorance levels or just for not know what to look for. Some times is more problematic due that we own different kind of room/systems and obviously different ears/body/brain sensitivity to different frequencies and to different SPLs. Noble 100 is spreading " everywhere " that low bass non detectable myth and that says he can't do it but that he can't do it does not means no one else can. Audio is complex issue, especially on what we are perceiving and a home system behavior is different of what happens in a MUSIC hall or a small club. R. |
Dear @audiokinesis : " I agree ". I don’t know from where you take that " I agree ". I think that you can make some tests with two of your subwoofers crossed at 30hz and with different SPL on each test. Position at a normal one seat position and play music ( digital or analog ) with very low bass recorded information and then through several tests/evaluations lest us know if you can or can’t detect from where comes the sound you are listening. Tests using first one subs at a time and then the same with the other and you can follow with both at the same time. Main speakers off(no sound.). I already dit it and I think that only true personal tests we can have an answer. Every one with subs can do it. Please don’t ask my conclusions, we have to make our work/job. R. Btw, this is what I posted here about mono/stereo: """ Atmasphere that has first hand experiences on the overall recording proccess posted in other thread what oput true ligth on that mono/stereo subs issue: """ Its not so much the limitations of the format as it costs a lot of money to pay an engineer to work a way around "out of phase bass". If you spend the time with the recording, you can usually find a way to master it without having to process it. But that takes time and at $500/hour most often bass processing is used. This is a simple circuit that senses when bass is out of phase and makes it mono below about 80Hz for a few milliseconds until the event has passed. This makes mastering LPs less expensive! But CDs do exist where out of phase bass exists. This can happen because a microphone is out of phase with the rest of the recording when a bass guitar or bass drum is recorded. For this reason, the recording engineer has a phase inversion switch on every channel of his mixer but he may not have thought to use them. If the recording is done in its entirety with only two mics, out of phase bass will not exist. """ |
Btw, first step/tread on that music quality learning ladders is to attend as many live music events we can, second can be to listen as many other home systems as we can and other truly revelatory thread/step is to listen live music seated at near source position that’s where normaly " seated " the recording microphones ( 1m to 3m. ) and we have to do it not one time but several times. All those steps are a learning lessons to understand the true meaning of quality in the MUSIC/sound reproduction on each one of us room/systems and at the same time we will use those lessons to through the time be up-dating/grading our system., fine tunning the system. Again, I’m talking of systems dedicated to listen only MUSIC not along HT option. R. |
Maybe problem is that each one of us usually can think that what we own is the " best of the best ". That does not exist quality levels where belongs each room/system There are low/poor quality, lower quality, medium or so so quality, top quality and the like. Quality is a ladder that where we need to learn how to go up step by step. I already left clear with his own facts/statement why noble100 system is a poor quality level and he needs to learn about that ladder quality steps/treads because many of us just do not want that low qualityn levls. Knowledge levels through first hand experiences helps a lot to learn about.. R. |
Dear @audiokinesis : What you posted was exactly this that I pasted from other thread: """ """ You can get good bass in one sweet spot with two equalized subs """ the words: not 3-4 but 2 were only to emphasis that you talks of two subs. In the same way the word " enough " that for the 99% of good low bass range at one seat position with high quality levels is enough. I don't care about HT needs. For two channels systems dedicated to listen only MUSIC the name of the game is QUALITY all over the room/system frequency range. To other gentleman I posted in this thread: """ Example: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615 do you think that the owner of this two channels room/system could " live " with 2-4 or what ever number of subs you name it of Rythmik subwoofers/DBs instead those self powered/active subwoofers towers that can go down to 3hz with almost no distortion levels at full power? """ that's top quality level in a dream dedicated MUSIC room/system. Obviously that only a few gentlemans ca own and enjoyb that quality levels but other audiophiles can do it some steps down with optimal quality levels that gentlemans like noble can't even imagine what really means quality. I already posted here that his attituted is a " robotic " one because he has a tatoos of number 4 and one model by SVS that even is not a true subwoofer. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @noble100 : After reading your last post that I was unaware of I only can say that you are incredible?/terrible man, because before your post you posted to me: " that I agree with you and then request you just cut it out. "" even that the OP already posted he use his system only for MUSIC two chnnels experiences you insist in that the best " room bass response " ( 4 subs. ) when what the OP needs is only good bass response at one seat position, nothing else. Got it? You posted in reference to other gentleman: """ disregarding his entire post He obviously lacks the knowledge and experience required to be giving good information or advice to anyone about attaining good in-room bass response performance .... """ I proved with your own statements/words that you neither has that knowledge levels you think you have but even that fact you diminished the opinion of that gentleman. Go figure ! ! ! Again, even the AK designer/owner from where came your 4 bass array configuration posted in this same forum that two subs for two channel stereo MUSIC are ENOUGH. But you follow/insist entilted in : " one solution good for all " and you ask for I cut about ! ? ! ? ! ? and till now you just do not understand why quality subs levels is so critical/vital to listen MUSIC ONLY ( not HT as you. ) in two channels room system at one seat position to blend to the mid/high one position frequency ranges. QUALITY not quantity as you like. QUALITY QUALITY QUALITY , tha’s the name of the game. You are totally wrong not only because your 4 bass array but because you are accustomed to very very low quality levels in your room/system. First learn and listen to room/system with top quality performance levels before following making posts with your true bs information. Maybe you have some personal limitations that preclude your understanding about. Sorry for you. R. |
Finger mistake: "" So we can be totally sure we can’t identify direction of very low bass frequencies. """ must says: We can’t be totally sure we can’t identify source direction of very low bass frequency range . Additional to what I posted we have to remember that our body/skind body is full ( by mm2. ) of nervous terminations that not only sense temperature or pain but SPLs level too and are really sensible about. R. |
Dear @cleeds @noble100 @hleeid : Atmasphere that has first hand experiences on the overall recording proccess posted in other thread what oput true ligth on that mono/stereo subs issue: """ Its not so much the limitations of the format as it costs a lot of money to pay an engineer to work a way around "out of phase bass". If you spend the time with the recording, you can usually find a way to master it without having to process it. But that takes time and at $500/hour most often bass processing is used. This is a simple circuit that senses when bass is out of phase and makes it mono below about 80Hz for a few milliseconds until the event has passed. This makes mastering LPs less expensive! But CDs do exist where out of phase bass exists. This can happen because a microphone is out of phase with the rest of the recording when a bass guitar or bass drum is recorded. For this reason, the recording engineer has a phase inversion switch on every channel of his mixer but he may not have thought to use them. If the recording is done in its entirety with only two mics, out of phase bass will not exist. """ In the other side we can think that we can't be aware the direction where are generated fundamental frequencies as low of 40hz-20hz or even lower. Well certainly not through our ears but a human been not only hear through the ears but from all body: ears, skin, bones, skin hairs, head hair and the like. The skin hairs are truly sensitive to very low bass frequency and we have a fenomenal transducer name it brain. So we can be totally sure we can't identify direction of very low bass frequencies. Now, I read through the AK site the quality myths about low bass range and I disagree with. When we are talking of two channels system MUSIC dedicated listen quality of the subs drivers and the overall subs design is way important because MUSIC start with the fundamental frequency but what we really listen is where MUSIC belongs that are the harmonics of that fundamental frequency/note and those harmonics will be developed with the quality level depending of the quality level of the fundamental note reproduced by the susb. Harmonics are what put the color and rythm in live MUSIC and home systems. As better quaklty be the subs as better will be the room/system experiences we have. The first 3-4 harmonics are the ones due its SPLs the ones normally we can listen but the 7-8 or even up harmonics puts some kind of small/tiny " colorations " to what we are perceiving. So we can't disgard the quality of the subs. Not all drivers and driver materials has the same qualiity level that's why manufacturers choose diffrenet build materials from different metalic ones to kevlar or puilp-paper. Obviously that the amp and crossover electronic quality design and quality parts are very important too. In a two channels MUSIC only normally we are looking for quality because the main speakers have a high quality levels and if the harmonics developed by the subs are not at same quality level then we can't really enjoy the listening experiences. @hleeid , first determine where you can get the best ubication for your speakers through listening tests. Where do you achieve the best listening experiences in the mid/high frequency range? and after that it will be more easy to find out ( by tyesting it. ) the two self powered subs you need. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @noble100 : """
, a 4-sub distributed bass array is the best solution. """ For who or whom?. Certainly was and is the best solution for you or millercarbon but thta does not means is the best solution for other gentlemans. Your needs, priorities, room system, MUSIC/sound experiences, ears sensitivity, knowledge levels and many other things are not the same for all of us. So, there is not that " best solution ". That's what you like it nd that's all. In the other side the HT needs are different than the specific needs for people like me or the OP that only want to use our room/system to listen MUSIC in two channel equipment where normlly we re looking for the higher quality level we can chieve with the higher room/system resolution. Quality first and quantity not main target. Problem is that in a thread you read " subwoofer " and your personal solution is the 4 AK Swarm no matters what. No one own a perfect system and certainly not yours or mine. Who told you that to listen only MUSIC in a system the best is your solution: who? Certainly it's not the " best solution ". With passive speaker designs two good quality subs are what we need. Seems to me that your posts are way HT oriented that goes more in specific to your solution. For just MUSIC your approach is wrong/non-adequated, at least for me. In your solution you don't care about the quality of the subs but I care a lot of and I'm not only talking of the subs facilities but its overall quality performance levels that's why I choosed Velodyne. Yes for other audiophiles preferences can be different there are several very good subs out there. Normally no one cares about subs distortion levels and as fact the subs manufacturers just does not disclose in the subs THD specs. That I remember only Velodyne did it but other more expensive subs as the ones by JL udio does not do it. The 0.5% THD in Velodyne is an achievement. The JL Audio ( I can't remember the model. ) through Stereophile review measured a value around 5%-6% ! ! I'm sure that you don't care about in the same way I do it. People like me are looking for subs that can't degrade the bass information range that we take out from the main speakers. So we are looking for better mid/high frequency range quality levels along better overall bass frequency range quality levels too. We want it " all ". Anyway, obviously you are free to post what you want. No problem but I explain my self in the overall subject because does not exist " a good for all solutions " and that AK DBA/Swarm solution is at a very low price point that goes along same quality levels.If we need quality then we have to pay for it. R. |
Dear @noble100 : """ I view this thread as a collaborative effort to try and assist.... """ werll that’s what you say but the true reality is that for you that 4 bass array/A K Swarm is a " religion " and good that you are satisfied with that kind of quality level performance. Because you posted in this thread I know that for you is more important quantity of subs over the quality of subs performance. @mijostyn speaks about quality over quantity and agree with him because that’s mu take too and even that @mcreyn did not said exactly usin the word quality he perfectly took in count it the importance of subs in two channels MUSIC system in what he posted as number 3): """ crossover to relieve those 5" drivers in your main speaker from bass duties. By reproducing deeper bass, especially as the volume level increases, the driver will experience increased distortion.... """ that’s what makes a paramount difference in quality system performance: lowering the Intermodulation Distortions levels on those Ologue 5 main speakers. You can’t speak about quality because your system quality level for MUSIC is to low. Is so low that you just can’t listen/hear the big difference between listening a passive speaker in its original frequency range design and the same speakers relieved from low bass frequencies. With all respect only a " deaf " or in a very poor quality level system can’t any one listen/appreciate the enormous differences when the main passive speakers are relieved of the low bass range ( 80hz and down. ). The difference is, believe it or not, nigth and day and has a name QUALITY level performance. Unfortunatelly you use too for HT your system. From where came my statement that you have a very poor quality listening system. Well from your self statements made it in other threads: Your small Magnepan psssive speakers has at specs: Low-Pass 12dB/octave @ 650Hz Band-Pass 6dB/octave @ 500Hz-950Hz tyhat means that the quai-ribbon driver handle a really wide frequency range with very high IMD levels and even that you posted: """ In my system, I’ve tried both configurations of running my planar panel mains full-range and with my mains as satellites with their low frequencies filtered out by the sub amp supplied with the Audio Kinesis Debra DBA system, This amp has a L/R high pass outputs for sending frequencies above the bass crossover setting to the main speakers amps. I thought my system sounded best with the main speakers running full-range. The mid-range and treble range sounded very similar to me with both configurations """ I had for 4 months Magnepan speakers and I like it and know very well other planar ( electrostatic. ) speakers as the top of the line Soundlabs where the owner of them can’t believe what he listened when he added two subs in his great room/system ( only MUSIC, not HT. ). No matters what is almost imposible not to be aware of the differences for the better when the low bass range gone from the main speakers. You not only did not been aware about but the system sounded best with main speakers running full range ! ! ! Well that is the quality level you have. I’m accustomed to a way different quality level. As I said a 4-bass Swarm religion. Quality?: who cares ! I think that before any one of us can help to any one we have to know where we are truly " seated ". Please not bad feelings, I'm not against you or your free rigth to post whatever you want it: NO. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @bdp24 : I have to say that never had the opportunity to listen the Rythmik subwoofers but I like that are servo controled and the manufacturer has a lot of models. As any other audio items the manufacturers of subwoofers build and put in the market for sale at a very carefully choosed price point for a specific market segment. Any audio item designed in specific at a market price point comes with the respective quality level performance. Not all " similar " subwoofers comes with the same quality level performance. In my case quality level resolution with very low distortion levels is a main subwoofer characteristics because I use it for two channels listen MUSIC only inside a system very hard tunned to very high resolution with very very low room/distortions. Normally with subs what we pay for is what we get on quality level performance. Example: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615 do you think that the owner of this two channels room/system could " live " with 2-4 or what ever number of subs you name it of Rythmik subwoofers/DBs instead those self powered/active subwoofers towers that can go down to 3hz with almost no distortion levels at full power? Certainly not no matters what. If the name of the game on each one of us room/system is Quality then we have to pay for ( obviously not of what offers that dream link system. ), especially if we are talking of two channel system for listen MUSIC. But even at your price point or my price point there are differences in the quality level of subwoofers and we have to understand that fact. Some of the gentlemans that post in this forum and that posted here always recomend the same kind of subs and the same number of susbs no matters what: it’s a no-sense advice because there are many things to take in count that are importan to the different OP needs that we must know before give any advice. With all respect to them seems to me that their attitude is not a human been one but a " robotic " one. Of course that we are in a free world and we can say whatever we want, it’s our privilege to do it. Btw, @leeid if your subs are to listen MUSIC then you need only two of them and this is a very good offer and alternative for you: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9a30g-velodyne-subwoofers-dd-12-subwoofers-2-pair-near-san-subwoofers its THD at 120dbs is only 0.5% ! ! ! . Well, my subs came from Velodyne too and I know exactly what I’m talking about but as any thing in audio is only an opinion and could be wrong.. Who knows? The best opinion is yours that will be the gentleman whom will live with what you decide: 1 or 2-4-6 subs. What you decide is important only to you. lways is difficult to understnd and talk about subwoofers subject and as you said needs a lot of homework for a newcomer, well maybe not a lot. My advise is that first try to define your priorities at the MUSIC/sound quality level. Quality level for you could means something different for other gentleman depends of each one of us live MUSIC experiences, what we like and the best way to enjoy it. Good luck with your quest/hunt and enjoy it, always is a learning lesson. R. |
Dear @hleeid : "" I am still a newcomer to this hobby and am beginning to realize just how much there is to learn about these things. """ In audio always there is something to learn and speaking of subwoofer subject a lot to learn/understand. First is to understand why with passive speakers we need subwoofers, second if we are listening music in HT fashion or just stereo music and third the bass range quality level we want it. If you mainly listen MUSIC ( stereo system. ) then please read with care this post: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 Listening to MUSIC what we need is a good overall quality room/system at one seat position. As a fact main speakers mid and high frequency ranges can have only one seat position where both frequency ranges are " optimal " and what we want is that the bass range be " optimal " too. Now, your speakers small woofers handle a frequency range that goes ( -3db. ) from 48hz to 2khz and works down to 32hz. That frequency range that handle those small woofers is really wide and makes that the Intermodulation Distortion levels in the speakers goes really high ( in that link is the explanation about. ) and this is the main reason why you need subwoofers that at the same time gives you not only a lot better quality room/system reproduction from your speakers ( midrange/high range. ) with lower overall distortions levels but now you will have at your seat position that really elusive and critical bass range, not boom boom but a true quality bass range and for this you need that the subwoofers bass range goes lower than 20hz that is where belongs a true subwoofer ( With all respect the ones in the link that other gentleman posted are not true subwoofers due that goes down only to 24hz but neither the ones that comes in the post speaking of 4 subwoofers. Both advises can’t give you the third characteristic I mentioned before: bass range quality. The kind of bass range at one seat position of those advises are rounded in the mediocrity/average. Perhaps in a dedicated thread I can explain to those gentlemans the real meaning on what I’m posting here. ) and that the subwoofers gives you a lower self distortion levels: you are looking for quality not only bass, at least is my understanding for what you ask. Of course that I can be wrong. For just MUSIC it’s worth to invest in good quality pair of self powered subs with kigh pass filter. No, not 8k and you can find out true high quality subs in second hand market even here in the Agon list advertasing. But if you want the subs mainly for HT then things are different because the HT overall need it quality is different too and had several seat positions. HT needs are different from just stereo MUSIC listening. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
