Schiit Yggdrasil -- 21 bit?
I believe Schiit addresses - at least somewhat - your question on their website FAQ page. If you have a Yggdrasil, I'd be grateful for your opinion regarding my question(s) in this post https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/new-yggdrasil-first-and-second-impressions |
@defiantboomerang / @shadorne Frankly, I'm interested, care about, etc. both measured performance and the sound. But as I've mentioned and am experiencing first hand (not to mention second hand by listening to other systems), I already have four DACs in total, but discounting the USB DAC in my M6si, that leaves two delta sigma (one in ERC-3 another in UDP-205) and the multibit in the Yggy. They all sound great and none of them play a fourth verse in a song that only has three. So should I be led to believe that there is in fact a "nirvana dac" that measures perfectly and sounds perfectly so I can hear this fourth verse? |
@defiantboomerang I had given the Benchmark DAC 3 serious consideration. I talked at length with one of their sales rep, and I very much liked the fact that he spent the time with me. Something Schiit really doesn't do. If I recall (and this was months ago so I'm going on memory only), for one thing the DAC 3 uses a Sabre chip 9028 whereas my Oppo uses the 9038. Granted, we all know there is more to the sound than *just* the chip (i.e. analog stage, etc.). Regardless, I just couldn't get past the fact that the Sabre chip in the Benchmark would sound like my Oppo, which uses an even more advanced chip. Further, the DAC 3 has many "cousin" configurations in their lineup, neither of which zeroed in on the specific (and only specific) functions I was seeking - namely bit perfect PCM conversion. I couldn't care less about the headphone amp, home theater bypass and other features in the DAC 3 that I don't need/want. And because the Benchmark isn't really any less expensive than the Yggy, it seems to me the cost is spread all that much thinner across all of its functions. So it's PCM specific abilities should be inferior to the Yggdrasil, because the Yggy's design focus is just PCM. Unfortunately I had no way of listening to either one prior to purchasing, so the return policy of each was also something I considered. Still, I think I made the wiser choice in my particular case to go with the Yggy. |
Yes, DAC3 and Oppo will sound the same. Not because they use similar chips, but because all decent modern DACs sound the same. @defiantboomerang Interesting insight on your part that you bring to this thread discussion. So if the DAC3 and Oppo will sound the same, please allow me to ask a question that essentially goes back to square one. In your opinion, why should someone who currently owns an Oppo (and is happy with sound) purchase or even consider purchasing a DAC3? |
Interesting in that Soekris states "It have the fantastic clean and natural sound of a 27 bit R-2R sign magnitude DAC..." whereas Schitt states "If your 24 bit recordings actually have 24 bits of resolution, we’ll eat a hat. And those "32-bit" DACs? Well, they have this measurement known as “equivalent number of bits.” This means, in English, how many bits of resolution they really have. And that number is 19.5. And 21 is better than 19.5, in all the math books we know." |
It can’t. John Atkinson review of the DAC clearly states that while the analog performance is excellent, the digital performance is less than desirable especially on high signal levels (which is the majority of pop rock music). Hello @shadorne Please allow me to preface this post by stating I am *not* looking to be argumentative (with you are anyone else). And I do know you are aware that I have recently purchased the Yggy, and sincerely appreciate your feedback in another post of mine. :) Your response to the OPs question "How can the DAC be 21 bit if the chips are 20 bit?" technically does not answer it. Irrespective of what JA claims, Schiit - the manufacturer of the product - clearly states "Yggdrasil is the world’s only closed-form multibit DAC, *delivering 21 bits of resolution* with no guessing anywhere in the digital or analog path. " So, wouldn't you agree that at a minimum the Ops question should be posed to Schiit? Seems to me they - and not me, you or Atkinson - would be the best people to ask. |
@shadorne and @defiantboomerang But JA also states "Now you could say that you prefer the sound of truncation against that of redithering and I have no argument with that opinion." Not to mention that JA’s measurement "suggest" that the LSBs of 24-bit data are simply truncated. So he is acknowledging he is not absolutely certain with his assertion/measurement understanding. |
@almarg I'm very appreciative that you would chime in on this thread. I don't want to speak or write on the OPs behalf, but he too should be. All - I'll up-the-anti. I'd like to suggest for the moment that you forget entirely about measurements. I don't care if its voodoo. The Yggy sounds spectacular. Please read my last post in the New Yggdrasil - First (and second) Impressions thread. |
@shadorne You are correct that measurements only validate accuracy or high fidelity capability of a device. The musicality aspects are all in the ear of the beholder. In my case, there is something else noteworthy. I already have a "virtual" Benchmark DAC 3. I call it an "Oppo UDP-205". It, has a MEASURABLY BETTER AND MORE ADVANCED DAC chip than the Benchmark. Some folks might now write back and cry foul; reminding me that the DAC chip itself represents only 20 percent of the story, and that the implementation of said chip, analog stage and grace of God comprises the remaining 80. I will then write back and point out that because the Oppo uses a Sabre ESS9038 instead of an ESS9028, that my 20 percent should really equate to 30 percent. And away we go. |
@defiantboomerang Apologies. I sincerely thought a wide degree of latitude would be acceptable, because your post (thread title) is specific to Schiit Yggdrasil, and it has been compared within this thread by others - directly and/or indirectly - to the Benchmark DAC 3. So, by extension, I thought - again, apologies because perhaps my thinking is incorrect - that since the DAC 3 uses a Sabre ESS 9028 chip, it would be reasonable to submit the Oppo UDP-205 into the discussion, because it too uses an Sabre ESS chip, albeit a 9038. Please let us know what you ultimately decide to "shop" for. |
I just found this post/quote from Mike Moffat and it appears to directly answer the OPs question. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-123#post-12342937 "Two twenty bit DACs (one per phase) double the resolution for a balanced signal. Double the resolution only adds 6db (one more bit) for a total of 21 bits. In this case, 20+20 equal 21." |
Awful lot of people obsessing here over measurements, one could almost mistake this for the Stereo Review website. Whatever happened to relying on A/B comparisons for what sounds better... Plenty of folks myself included that certainly perform A/B comparisons. Nevertheless, obsessing or not, objective measurements certainly do matter. |
@gbmcleod Best of luck with your new Yggy. I am a relatively recent owner of one myself, and I'm very pleased with it. I'll be interested to read your impressions of it. To David's point, if you recently placed an order, it will ship with Gen 5. They all do. You will know this by a sticker on the back panel above the USB input and from your computer when it is connected via the USB (the device name will indicate Gen 5). As to your statements (paraphrasing) about listening with ones ears instead of relying on specifications, I believe both are very important and useful. All available information should (IMO) be considered when evaluating a component, and that certainly includes your own ears, but should not be limited to your own ears. |
IMO, whenever you plan to listen - even after break-in - it's nice to have run the Yggy with a source for 30 minutes to an hour prior to your listening session. +1! Most bands have an "opening act". Prior to my listening to a live recording of a two to three hour show, I throw something on. This flies in the face of those who intentionally leave the Yggy on 24/7. I do not. I power off/on each listening session. I suppose if the Yggy were left on 24/7 it could forgo the need/desire to "warm it up". :) |
A question for Yggdrasil owners: do you still use the stock power cord provided with the unit or have you substituted another cord?I'm using the stock power cord. I substituted the power cord immediately. I also removed the very 'basic' footers.Hi David. Were you able to detect an audible difference with either the (ones you use in place of stock) cable or footer? I'm sure you read the manual. The Yggdrasil has "zero stick-on feet (because Yggy already has screw-in feet—you’ve reached the big leagues now, guys)" Just a little humor :) |
@david_ten and @gbmcleod Thanks for the candid feedback regarding Yggdrasil "stock" power cords and footers. It's nice (for me at least) to understand there is yet another upgrade path and/or means to improvement. I'm more than content for the immediate future though. While you may already know this, I figure it's worth mentioning as it's in the "same vein" where stock Yggy parts are concerned. I've read much recently on the head-fi forum where at least some folks claim *big* improvement is to be had by replacing the stock glass fuse with other "boutique" brands (varying but all supposedly better). The downside here from what I understand is that it would void the warranty. But I suppose one could always wait a few years until the Yggy is out of warranty :) |
Really?!? Schiit said it would void the warranty if someone used a different fuse??? Yes, according to folks posting here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread.766347/page-426 See the most recent posts dating back from 1/18 to a few weeks prior. ...How long did you find it took for the upper midrange glare to subside?...I hear - from the head-fi.org site - that it’s somewhere around 200 hours that that sound goes away. Did you experience that with your unit? Can't really say/write. I never heard anything "glaring" from the Yggy per se. It sounded good right out of the box. When I first got it I went through all kinds of listening tests from a comparison perspective to my existing gear. I documented my findings in this thread. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/new-yggdrasil-first-and-second-impressions As documented in that thread, I eventually found source music material that *clearly and consistently* could be used to demonstrate how well the Yggy can "best" my Oppo and Emotiva, which now act as transport. However, I honestly cannot be sure if that discovery was a result of "break-in" or my increased understanding as to what specific qualities to listen for. I'm inclined to believe it is the later. |
