07-08-15: Zynec
...If I see the Tritons at a nearby store I will check them out as well.
Founder Sandy Gross was previously co-founder of Polk Audio and Definitive Technology, so he has a great track record of creating extensive dealer networkds. Here's the GoldenEar Dealer Locator. You'll find that there are dealers in 46 states plus District of Columbia.
For the Ohm's and sound staging, is the idea that the soundstage is huge but the exact location of instruments, singer, etc, is "fuzzy" for lack of a better word? I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're saying
A really good stereo speaker setup throws a soundstage commensurate with the source. This is sometimes called scaling up or scaling down. For example, for fullscale orchestra and chorus, the soundstage *should* be big, but if it's solo voice and acoustic guitar, or solo cello, the soundstage should be smaller unless the rest of the soundstage is honestly presenting the reverberation and ambience of the recording venue. As for imaging, in live performance you seldom get "pinpoint imaging." In concert halls, the reverberation and ambience creates a large soundstage, but it also makes the location of specific instruments and singers a bit approximate. OTOH, a recording can be created that provides pinpoint imaging because the studio is more damped than a concert venue and from careful microphone placement and mixing to make each musician's location sound particularly finite. I have a pair of Maggies (dipole), a pair of bipolar speakers (Mirage M5si) and have had two pairs of omnidirectional speakers using the late Mirage's Omniguide waveguide. They all create realistic soundstages and ensembles and soloists scale up and down depending on size. I also find the imaging to sound realistic, and I can sense accurate placement of instruments, stctions, soloists, choruses, etc. Yet I read reviews that single out these speakers as "not being the ultimate in pinpoint imaging." Since I find the imaging of these speakers to be *at least* as definitive as a live concert, I am completely satisfied with their ability to image. In fact, you can get just about any speaker pair to image well if you listen to them in the near field. Even with completely omnidirectional speakers, I can get a very holographic soundstage--and therefore specific images--by scooting forward a couple of feet to widen and deepen the soundstage. Of all the speakers I've had though, I get the most holographic and specific soundstage *and* imaging from the Magnepans. If you're not getting that from Maggies, the setup or room is off, and possibly the upstream cables or electronics. |
The Magnepans lacked air? Sounds like a sub-par setup to me. Even when I was auditioning the 1.7s (which I bought), the sale rep used a tape measure to set them up properly. The panels were also angled toward the listening spot. If you do that, the imaging will be tighter while the overall soundstage extends beyond the speakers.
You can get pinpoint imaging easily with mini-monitors or single drivers. If you want frequency extension at both ends you'll probably need floorstanders. Properly set up, Maggies give a very realistic presentation devoid of boxy colorations and slow transient response.
Plus, were you auditioning 3.7s or 3.7i's? They have entirely different feet, and the "i" version is freer and more open with a fuller bass. |
My dealer placed the tweeters to the inside for both audiitons of the 1.7s. At home I've switched them back and forth a couple of times and always ended up preferring the tweeters to the inside. HOWEVER, I just took another look at the manual and I notice that you *always* have to have the tweeter side pointing directly at the center sweet spot. This means if you put the tweeters to the outside, the panels will be pointed inward more. I'm thinking of trying it that way tomorrow mostly for kicks, because I'm really liking the sound I'm getting now. 3.7i's probably need to be 4 to 5 feet out from the wall behind them and at least 3 feet from the side walls. And you *must* angle them inward. You don't have to spend a fortune on the amplification, but it has to be a good match. You may want to consider the 1.7i's and use the money you save to augment the low end with one or two JL Audio Dominion subs. |
Having performed in and attended many live concerts, the stable soundstage of omnis such as the Ohms and omniguide-based Mirages, plus dipoles such as the Magnepans, throw a much more realistic "live" soundstage than the pinpoint imaging of minimonitors. I'm not out to convert you, my take is that pinpoint imaging is a parlor trick of extreme point-source transducers. Fascinating, but not realistic. Some people pursue "pinpoint imaging" at the expense of overall tonal balance, soundstage, and in-room power response, which (IMO and IME) are more important and satisfying in the long run. |
Pinpoint imaging can be fun. What I'm saying is that 1) Pinpoint is sort of a recording contrivance that seldom occurs in live performance and 2) Pursuing pinpoint imaging as the *first* priority often compromises other parameters that are more important to long term satisfaction, things like tonal balance (the most important), soundstage (important for recreating the live experience and having a stable image throughout the room), and power response (energizing the listening area properly and having a listening area devoid of hot spots and suckouts). I don't know if you've considered just how big your listening area is, and what a challenge it would be to energize it for a good soundstage and tonal balance. Your listening area is nearly 5500 cubic feet, The floor plan occupies 400 sq. ft, but the high ceiling increases the total volume considerably compared to having a standard 8' ceiling. Fortunately, your sloped ceiling is probably an advantage by weakening the effect of standing waves. For Magneplanars, the 3.7i or 20.7 would probably be the right size for your room. The 3.7is might well need a sub or two well for good tonal balance. The 1.7i's *might* work out, but you'd probably need a pair of JL e110 subs to fill out the bottom and energize that big room. This panel/sub combo would satisfy your $5-5.K budget. Some recommended the Ohms. Specifically, the Ohm 4000s would be the ideal size for your room and have the dispersion and bass performance to fill it. The price is also right. You would get a room-filling soundstage that would have good tonal balance. You'd get decent imaging, but to get the pinpoint variety you'd probably have to sit closer, almost in a nearfield mode to get it. Another good candidate that has not been mentioned is the GoldenEar Triton One. These go for $5K/pair and have several things in their favor. For one, the front-facing speaker array is a D'Appolito/MTM array, which creates a very tight point source, excellent both for dispersion and imaging. The front baffle is very narrow (5-3/4") and curved, also great for imaging and dispersion. For providing good tonal balance in that big room, the Triton 1's bass is provided by three built-in powered subwoofers augmented by four passive radiators. Power is provided by a 1600 watt internal amp. Reviews: Stereophileand The Absolute Sound |
Did you change your budget considerations? This last round of speakers you auditioned (Magico, SF Olympica, Focal 1038be and Sopra, etc.) are at least two to three times as much as your originally stated budget of "5K used," and since some of these models are new or recent releases (e.g., Sopra and 1038be) you're not likely to find used ones at half retail for some time.
Your experience with the Maggie 3.7i's, and how they had no imaging to speak of reminds me of something when I was selling audio in the mid-'70s. We had a large mid-fi front room (receivers, integrated amps, bookshelf speakers, cassette decks) and a small high end room in the back (Accuphase, Crown, USA-made Marantz Pro separates, Dahlquist, Ohm, ESS AMT floorstanderrs, and floorstanding JBLs). We were an Advent dealer. When I suggested we set up an "Advent Stack" in the high end room (2 pairs of Larger Advents in stacked pairs) to the manager, he said "No, because if we set those up we won't sell anything else." An Advent Stack would cost half or less than a pair of anything else in the back room.
Given my experience with my Magneplanar 1.7s, vs. Wilsons, Sonus Fabers, Focal, Wharfedale, GoldenEar, and Gallo as recent auditions, I can't help wondering if your local dealer sets up the Magneplanars in a way that keeps the "you get what you pay for" hierarchy intact.
I remember absolutely *melting* a few years ago when I heard some Cremona M's, and I had nowhere near the money to buy them. Not quite 2 yrs ago--after extensive auditioning--I brought home my 1.7s. After letting them settle in and tweaking placement, angle, and subwoofer integration, I am absolutely astounded at how these things make music and I have no desire or temptation to want anything "better."
And I listen to a lot of challenging material on them--fullscale orchestra, opera, oratorios, big band, a capella vocal, baroque brass ensemble with pipe organ, vocals w/big band such as Sinatra and Tony Bennett w/Count Basie, Quincy Jones, etc. It doesn't matter if it features vocal harmony, acoustic instruments, drum solos, brass, vocal solo, 9' grand piano--whatever--it delivers on everything I throw at them, and always with a realistic sized-soundstage that stays put, even when I'm to the left of the left speaker. |
Wardl: How big's your new listening room? Any chance you could put the 1.7s up against the wall and then bring them out for listening? If your new listening room is significantly smaller, maybe you could replace the 1.7s with some MMGs. At 20 lbs. per panel, they'd be easy to move to the wall and back for storage vs. listening periods. |
Well, it seems that the demo room is getting in the way one way or another. I mentioned the Triton 1's because they are one of the few speakers that 1) fit your budget and 2) have the frequency extension, dispersion pattern, and bass power to energize a room the size of your listening area.
One of the problems auditioning GoldenEars is that because they're less money and distributed along the lines of Polk and DefTech, they often get paired with mid-fi receivers instead of high end separates that they deserve. Because the Triton 1's have a self-powered bass section, they can get by with a lower powered main amp, but it needs to be a good one. Maybe your demo was powered by Parasound, but I guess we don't know for sure.
Also, on a short listen, the Tritons (or any of the GoldenEars) can sound "polite" because of the folded ribbon tweeter. More extended listening will reveal that all the treble, overtones, and air are there, but minus the overshoot, ringing, and harshness that often accompanies pistonic tweeters. The Motion Transformer tweeter has several square inches of radiating area, so it requires very little movement to make lots of sound. I think we're so used to hearing treble harshness that truly smooth tweeters sound sort of dull until you sort through the sound. Just MHO and may not apply to your audition.
The Cremona Ms rang my bell Iistening to some Diana Krall backed by Christian McBride on bass and Russell Malone on guitar. It gave me everything--clear in-room midrange, articulate and linear bass on McBride's bass lines, and seductive hall ambience. The biggest surprise, however, is that it was being powered by a $999 Marantz integrated amp, the PM8004, since superseded by the PM8005 at $1199. That 80 wpc amp was fast, clean, organic, and maintained an iron grip on the bass.
From what I've heard, the Cremona M is strong down to 40Hz, which covers most music, but drops off from there, and some like to add a sub to cover that last octave. with the Krall trio, they didn't need anything. The Cremona Ms also satisfy your desire for soundstage *and* imaging. A very fine speaker. Although they're not panels, they have big outriggers and are deep, so they need a bit of space too.
In my experience, the Maggies' panels don't block the sound, they're *making* the sound, and properly set up they throw a seamless soundstage with lots of 3D imaging. 3D imaging depends in part on everything being in phase, and it helps that all a Magneplanar's sound is emanating from a flat panel made of one material, so all the primary sound hits you at the same time and of a piece. You don't have woofers, mids, and tweets made of different materials, of different depths, and different risetimes trying to make cohesive music. The Maggies have that advantage. |
I've done some searching and apparently "pistonic" is a made-up word in the audio world, and the original use was when multiple coils and magnets are used to drive the diaphragm more evenly, like those rectangular and odd-shaped speaker drivers of the '70s (many by Yamaha).
What I really meant was what we're used to hearing from some metal domed tweeters, which invariably have a resonant frequency spike (just about the range of hearing) and what's called "oil canning" which is also a distortion characteristic of overdriven metal domes.
My main point is that the accordion pleat compression drive of the Heil-type motion transformer, with its larger radiating surface and minimal motion, doesn't exhibit the harshness characteristic of many metal domes, and therefore might sound rolled off when it is actually delivering accurate treble without accompanying mechanical distortions we're used to hearing. |
I don't know if this was a factor in your audition, but the GoldenEar tweeter has very limited vertical dispersion and needs to be at ear level to show its stuff. Here are the measurements from Stereophile's Triton 1 review. You'll see that the tweeter response is very flat up to around 9Khz, and then actually rises a few dB for the next octave. However, However, the dispersion graphs show a sharp dropoff above and below the tweeter level. |
