Slawney, it was my post that recommended using the two different wire gauges (thin hot, thick return). However, not for ICs but only for speakers cables. In my system it produced better bass.
My Japanese speaking friend is going back to Japan next week and may visit Mr. Kimura again. While there he can ask him (not the distributor!) directly, if the thicker cable would make a good power cable. I would call Mr. Kimura myself, but he does not speak English and my Japanese is rusty. The last time my friend was there Mr. Kimura gave him the exact power cable and another experimental cable he was using in his reference system. My friend gave me the cables, but I have not used them as the gauge looks too small-might start a fire, although the insulation is thicker than on the OTA.
What might work is to hardwire the OTA to the the component and attach a plug at the end and plug that end into your favorite power cord. That way the first power cord can dampen the mechanical resonances and the OTA can further refine the filtered power.
|
Tom, thanks for the info. Sounds like you've messed around with some different solders, eh? Have you tried the Wonder,WBT, or the Cardas Quad Eutectic? I have only read their names (along with several other types)in the Tweakers Asylum.I guess I've opened another can of worms.Looks like a quality iron will be neccessary to make the "good stuff" flow.. there was something else about midnight , a full moon and swinging a chicken overhead (no problem there)...I appreciate the feedback.thanks,Dave |
Dave,the solder is called Riehl Copper Solder named after its composition designer Brent Riehl. This solder has no lead and no flux. I got it to flow well. You do need to have a quality gun with adjustable temperature. This is, by far the best sounding solder I believe I have heard. Reason I feel I can say this is I have 2 Sonoran cables one with the older high quality solder and another identical, but with the copper based. The difference is not sudtle.This solder is sold by the pound call 1-877-668-4332.This is also where I purchased the hook up wire. Tom |
I just discovered there are TWO OTAs! There is a .65mm version in addition to the .40mm version of OTA. The .65mm version is explicitly designed for power cables, but not recommended for IC and speaker cable applications--although I remember a post a few months ago from someone who advocated using the two different diameters for + and neutral runs of the same IC. The larger wire is safer for power applications, and might even result in a better sound. I will trade in some of my .40mm power cables for the .65mm wire and report on the results. Perhaps now we have to refer to OTA SMALL and OTA LARGE. :-D
Of course, OTA cables were used by 47 Labs throughout their exhibition system at Frankfurt High End 2002--just like last year, everything was wired with OTA. Of course, there was a lot of astonished audiophiles looking at the OTAs running everywhere. And there was one incredibly funny incident concerning the "specialness" of OTA.
Austin: nice OTA trick! Why not bypass the binding posts (on both speaker and amp) altogether and run OTA directly from the speaker crossover board to the amplifier output board? Bypassing binding posts and big female RCA plugs really helps open up the sound, and improves detail alot.
|
hello to theaudiotweak...Is the copper based solder that you mentioned above commonly available?Is there a specific name for it? I plan on replacing some arteries on my Triangles this weekend and need to pick some of that up.I should've gone all the way with the OTA right from the start;but then what would I screw around with now...? Thanks for the info and input. |
Thanks for all the feedback guys, I will be doing the external crossover rewiring job and yes, I definitely have to get a drill to help with the screws :-))
Besr Regards,
Bill |
On one other thread I commented that I use the same wire thru out my system. Internally as well as externally. .Almost all the connections are done with the same copper based solder as well. We all speak of time alignment and coherence. This rather extreme approach has resulted in a system that shouts subtle dynamics. I started using Sonoran wire designs about four years ago and have since let my system evolve with their newer refined releases. I am beleiver in the Sonoran products and even more so a beleiver in using the same signature of cable thru-out one's system. |
Theaudiotweak, What wire did you use? |
BTW, I rewired my Dunlavy SCI4's and I had to mount my X-over outside.Huge difference. A buddie of mine who has Spendors rewired his with the same wire I used and could hardly hold onto the phone as he described the improvement. |
The changes are mostly in the character of the bass, not the quantity. You can hear subtle textures (like with upright bass) than before and it may be tighter. The midrange is also clearer since the bass speaker also handles much of the midrange too. There is just more detail all over and the highs are less shut in. The speaker also feels MUCH faster and more alive.
I also considered doing the external crossover, but I was worried I didn't have enough wire (and I didn't have a box hand for them).
The entire mod takes only a couple of hours and you'll need a soldering iron. A drill with a phillips but really speeds up the process too (lots of screws on the back).
Also, be sure to connect the binding posts really tight - if you don't they can come loose and you'll have to take the back panel off again (the voice of experience here :-).
Let me know how it works! |
Hi Austin,
I have a Spendor SP1/2 myself and was thinking of rewiring it with the OTA cable as well. Would really appreciate your feedback on the improvements with the OTA especially in the bass. Does the bass becomes tighter or more extended? Btw, I'm also toying with the idea of mounting the crossover outside the speakerbox when I do this mod. |
What a great thread! Just to throw in my 2 cents - I also have the 47 Labs cable and love it. If you haven't done so already, try replacing the internal wire of your speakers with the cable. I did so with my Spendor 1/2s (replacing pounds of really thick cable) and the results are outstanding. I think you are not getting the full benefit of the cable without going all the way to the speaker drivers themselves. |
Point taken. Petty it is, mea culpa, regardless of the merits. I don't like to appease anonymous pot-shotters -they only do it again later - but at some point, perhaps any point, one should just take the high road. Thank you for reminding me. Who cares anyway, right? Just tougher when it was someone you were nice to. |
It.s amazing how often this forum of Audiophiles start bitching at each other. Shut up and keep to the thread.
This Forum is about the music and exchange of expereince,s in different components .
HOW PETTY.
Steve |
Can't we all just get along?
I have a set of French Pistols if you guys want to have a face off..........
In all of this doody, I get that someone has a set of cables they dont like....wanna let me try them out? I am still hunting for a set of used fishing line :>)
DeKay: I am trying to take your advice, but cant find used ones for cheap......there must be a reason for it.. |
Slawney, some guy calls me (Bwhite), who I don't even know, and asks me what I'd do if I were him and had his system. I tell him and give hime some options. THIS IS THE SAME THING I DID FOR YOU. I'm guessing you ended up not liking my advice down the road - which is fine - and felt a need to dig me when you saw me talking to Bwhite about the same recommendation. Does this require a less-than-concise diatribe on determinism and freedom, or on the relative differences in cultural worldview, or a dig at me, or a dig at me five months late on behalf of your new hobby-buddy sead? You need to get a life, really. |
In the words of the ever snooty velvet rope tender on the old Saturday Night Live shows - "Take it outside, take it outside" |
Over? The question remains whether the topic of the "tangle" (the whole entanglement of a 4-way tele-friendship or tele-foe-ship--about which, at least, we have more knowledge) between asa, Bwhite, sead, and I should have been brought to the light of day, or whether it should have remained secret. In principle, I made it public: to give those outside the "tangle" another context in which to judge our assessments of OTA. The value of publicity, that is, of broad daylight (the basis of popularity, openness, res publica, and politics) essentially goes along with my (questionable and questioned) testimony. Not referring to the heart of the secret, not testifying was also a critical possibility for me.
This testimony has led to some passionate discussion. The reason I have not immediately responded to asa, Bwhite, and sead's latest posts, is that I have been trying to understand the cause for asa's persistent need to identify "influence" with the "nefarious," the "underhanded" despite my persistent attempts to avoid this negative connotation through a polite use of "influence", and a respectful--perhaps obsequious--relation to his audio knowledge and writing. A certain passion for free determination haunts many of asa's representations of Bwhite's choice of AN / NBS cables, as a major expression of asa's esteem for Bwhite's independence. Here "influence" is seen as abusive with regard to possible liberty or freedom of choice. In my more classical and sociological understanding, influence does not enter into a dialectic of determinism and freedom. I know that in the West (esp. in the USA), one sees influence as a negation of freedom, because one thinks that influence is not absolute, or that one could or should have the courage to combat it. (As an example of how this ideological notion of freedom of choice functions in US liberal-democratic society, the failure of Clinton's healthcare reform program--perhaps the only significant, though negative, event in Clinton's presidency--bears wirness to the material force of the notion of free choice: the medical lobby succeeded in imposing on the public the fundamental idea that, with State healthcare, free choice (in matters concerning medicine, hospital accomodation) will be somehow threatened--against this purely fictional reference to "free choice", all enumeration of "hard facts (in Canada, health care is less expensive and more effective, with no less free choice, etc.) proved ineffective.) To get back to our discusssion: each time that I have tried to suggest an influence between asa and Bwhite, with regard to the acts that led Bwhite to AN / NBS cables, asa has rejected this influence. Thus even a portrait and story of their tele-friendship has been drawn up and the new concept of guidance has been proposed by Bwhite ("Asa, through the forum, guided me ...") and leadership by asa ("I don't like leading people (and, "leading" is not a word that lets you accuse me of underhanded-ness..) to waste $ when less would do..."). Of course, one can always see a sort of vicious circle of determinism at play here: the more asa rebels against others taking his "guidance" as a sign of influence, the more his passionate rebellion is seen as a confirmation of his influence. But I think that Bwhite's indefatiguable passion for testing cables (as well as so much other audio equipment) can be considered as a figure for his independence. And let us not forget how Bwhite himself concuded the above post: "I would have eventually found the right cables - I just might be a lot poorer." What this means is that asa's conferring a formal freedom of choice to Bwhite does not make any difference: given the freedom, Bwhite would have done the same thing even if he was denied it: found the right (AN and NBS) cables for his system, except he would have wasted money doing it (doesn't your dealer provide test cables for free Bwhite?). This does not means that asa's reminder and bestowal of free choice on Bwhite does not make any difference: he will continue to rationalize Bwhite's free choice because he is unable to endure that he might have led someone to waste money on expensive cables ("I don't like leading people ... to waste $"). It must naturally please asa to hear Bwhite claim that asa "saved" Bwhite money. However, there was once an open question whether 47 Labs could have saved Bwhite even more money. The answer seems to be: with his system, and his ears, no.
As far as the most recent exchange between asa and sead is concerned: antagonism four months ago, antagonism today. Through all the mutations and changes in the forum, the conversations and discoveries that have abounded since we began, the memory still remains, the insistence and persistence of hostility; it still remains as it remained four months ago. Remaining, it was probably there the entire time. There is a memory of insults, accusations, provocations, etc. It remains, in the imperfect past of incompletion, and it is difficult for me to translate the feelings of disappointment as I read some of these latest exchanges than with the question: for how much longer? for how much more time?
Sead: perhaps it is because your Pataphysics has attained such a perfection of play and lightness that you give such little seriousness and importance to this discussion--which has little to begin with perhaps. You seem to raise the question: Should we kill ourselves over this discussion? And answer: No, it is not a serious discussion. But, I would add: precisely THAT is your seriousness. To better exhalt Pataphysics, it is better to be a Pataphysician without knowing it--which we all are here to a certain extent. Humor wants humor with regard to humor. This discussion must be null for you. In it, everything has become vanity, artificial, gaseous, even schizophrenic. The sulphorous and sumptuous smile of Ubu renders everything useless and has the freshness of...
In order to ask your pardon for having made things go on so long, in order to end without ending in great haste, and so as to not let complaints (which will always surface in any passionate discussion) go on too long, one must know how to put this to an end: "C'est desormais assez discouru sur ce point." (Amyot) |
Excellent news: Thanks "B". |
Dekay... now that that's over - sorry everyone. The OTA is working very well in my home theater system. I have 20' runs going to my rear speakers and it seems to be fine. I was initially concerned with the length but it appears to work in my application with little or no RFI. Given that the OTA was so long and the rear had very little information being sent there during movies, I expected to hear constant hiss - buzz or whatever with the OTA. There has been none of that - just quiet - and I'm happy!! |
Sead: you didn't "scar me emotionally" thats just your histrionics taking over again. You called me a hipocrite, a psuedo-intellectual, and a bunch of other things I'm not going to bother going back to see, when I just asked you to say why you said what you did. That's a horse's ass to me. Now you say I am/was a "dilletant" in psychology (by the way, its spelled "dilettante"). Well, I've got two master's degrees from the London School of Economics, where I wrote on the psychology of military thinking and the philosophy of war, even being invited to do a Ph.D., in addition to a law degree, and have published on the mind's perception of music, so I think you might be a little off on your assumptions. If you are interested in reading some of my articles on aesthetic theory, let me know. I'm not going to address anything more with you, which before Slawney took it upon himself to pull up something five months over, was where we left it.
Slawney: my post shouldn't have lead you to the position that I was underhandedly "influencing" people, especially given your personal experience with me - regardless of what type of semantical spin you want to stay with as your lone justification. I've been upfront with you, complementary of you, honest with you, tried to get you a position with my magazine at your request, even staying with it months after our sale was over, and you took an underhanded dig at me for some reason I don't yet get. Basically, I didn't let you get away with it and rather than admit you might have gone too far and apologizing you would rather keep arguing about why the word "push" - devoid of all context - allows you to assume something you now know isn't true. You should have never made the insinuation and you were wrong, then and now. As for sead, why are you dragging something up five months old? Just being "diplomatic", right? If you want to now stay out of what is/was between sead and myself, if anything, then you should have thought about that before becoming a five-month-too-late "diplomat".
I'm glad you ended with cable talk. Stick to that.
BWhite: your welcome and thank you. I learn from you too, as I have from Slawney.
On OTA: I was so intrigued because of the design and the fact that, just at that time, I was floored by the bare-wire connected KSL spkr wire. With all of the people here with good ears praising the OTA and it being "only" $600, I thought there might be a way to get away from the hideously expensive with the same or better performance. That was my motivation and when some people started to shy away from the OTA in comparison to the cables I have, I wanted to know why. I also felt better because I don't like leading people (and, "leading" is not a word that lets you accuse me of underhanded-ness..) to waste $ when less would do, wasting the money that I have along the way. Its really quite simple. I have no vested interest in NBS - quite the contrary - as I believe the manufacturer inflates prices and I do not wish to support such action, regardless of the rules of capitalism, such as they are. The problem is they do something that I have not heard elsewhere, something about "magic" in the right system (tubed). With that said, at $600 the OTA represents a wonderful value, notwithstanding that they are designed as an integral 47 labs' system product. The comparative investigation should continue and contrary opinions, validly given, should not be taken personally, as if someone believing that cable X is superior somehow diminishes your idea of yourself. |
Bwhite, I'm glad that you find proper cables and that you returned magic, involvement and right speed to your system.
After all, OTA is a lesser cable design and its main purpose is to connect 47 labs components, nothing more.
But, you have to admit that OTA has struggled very good with your esoteric cable designs!
Happy listening,
Ivo |
Ivo - thanks for the introducing yourself. I appreciate it and it's a pleasure to meet you.. :) Perhaps my statement was too strong in suggesting that as an unregistered Audiogon user your posts were not credible. I do believe that registering, as a user is important because there are so many people who post non-sense as unregistered in hopes to hide behind their anonymity. Registration somehow limits the non-sense but occasionally a few get by the screeners.
When you made the statement, "OTA cables are so natural and neutral that they sometimes present how the rest of the system is bad. It's not the problem of OTA, it's the problem of poor source, amp or speakers." I simply laughed it off. No harm done. I have read others say worse about those who dislike lesser cables.
I have spent a great deal of time with OTA and have been extremely polite in my appraisal of the product. There are more reasons why I no longer use it but lets just focus on what I have stated. What you took as me saying "too fast" was actually stated as "a little too fast". That's a big difference. That judgment was not based on a comparison between OTA and other cables per se but more a familiarity of my CD Player (Mephisto II), which tends to be a bit slow & relaxed sounding. The player maintains that character with every interconnect I have tried - except the OTA. The mild increase in speed (previously referred to as being "a little too fast") was accompanied by the disappearance of a certain "magical" quality I hold dear in the Mephisto. The more I listened the more I realized the OTA was restricting something somehow. While it seemed to have reasonably good dynamics it was clearly restricted somewhere since my components no longer sounded like my components were supposed to sound. With the OTA, my system was simply un-involving. Sorry...
Hi Slawney - being a reviewer, Asa has fantastic experience with audio products. It just happens that he pointed me (not pushed) toward these cables. At the time of my meeting Asa, I was caught up in the pain of Siltech, Valhalla, and other more mainstream brands. After a few emails with him I felt that Asa's experience with various cables paralleled mine in many ways. His knowledge, suggestions, and vivid descriptions were most welcome. Quite frankly, Asa saved me a lot of time and money with his suggestions.
These forums are designed to help people and this is a case where it did. Asa, through the forum, guided me from being a chronic 4 interconnect a week user to finding something that worked very well. Of course if we had never met, I would have eventually found the right cables - I just might be a lot poorer.
Asa
Thanks for your help!!
Sead
Nothing for you - The personal insults and degrading comments you have so eloquently defecated upon this forum are inappropriate, as I am sure you well know. I will not entertain your banal existence with fuel for further insolence. |
Asa, re.: "what misguided probability analysis led you to the conclusion that "push" should be excised from its context for your suddenly literal purposes?" Two questions: 1.) What diacritical marks in the 04-25-02 post to Bwhite indicate that your post should be considered "rather playful"? Is it the "ahh" at the beginning? Emotives like this depend on intonation: I can easily imagine an "ahh" as a sign of relief, or a sign of frustration. Electronic writing alone does not let me know what kind of "ahh" this is. Perhaps we need to load up sound-files under our posts:-) But seriously, for someone who was not privy to your correspondence with Bwhite, what marks indicate that your message is merely humorous? Second question: 2.) What meaning would a non-literal reading of the word "push" give? Third question: 3.) how much of the 04-25-02 post is "playful"? Are we to interpret the statement "Glad you still like the KSL/NBS combo" as playful, and the concluding lines "Thank you, bwhite, and all of the others, for putting in the time with the OTA and letting us know about your experiences"--as just a jest?
I am not going to pick up the "discussion" between you and sead. You are correct to put the word "discussion" in quotes: it was not a discussion. I just reread the exchange (let us call it that). You are right to say that "sead refused (your) inquiry as to what was the basis of his negative blanket characterizations of (your) fully laid out arguments" He did however state his reason for not responding. I am not going to pick up this exchange, for a few reasons: 1.) it was not my "discussion"; 2.) it was not really a "discussion"; 3.) I do not know what sead would have said in response to your inquiry. Thus, forgive me, but I cannot "take up sead's banner" or be "sead's foil." I do not know what "sead's banner" really is, or if he has one. Besides, as I already said, I am trying not to defend him. He should answer for himself, if he wants to. I cannot put words in his mouth. And, I repeat, I am not responsible for his words.
The passage that you addressed to me back on 10-31-01 that I like to recall in its entirety is the following:
"What I think is being missed here in a NBS Statement (your series 1, right Slawney?)and Sakura comparison (assumably IC's)is the synergy issue between IC's and spkr cable. NBS IC's are superior IMHO to their spkr cable - and many other speaker cables match well to their IC's sans their spkr cables. I look at NBS as an interjector of a certain nuance in harmonic complexity (deep into the harmonic fabric) and spatial realism (at the shallower levels of listening, in how sound waves move in space; symmetrical and continuous and with proper projection qualities) and at the deepest levels existentially (the deep intuitive grasp that the "event" of musical connection between mind and music is not cut by a soundfield that lacks a intuition of dimension). In the most advanced systems, these are the qualities that one is still after and a component that accomplishes it should not be relegated based on an immediate reaction to "speed', "detail", and the thrill of dynamic swing and contrast that are predomonantly appreciated at less deep levels of listening (which doesn't mean that they aren't important, just that they can get in the way if over-emphasized in relative value). " (end quote)
I agree completely that NBS speaker cables are not as good as their ICs. Having owned and/or used four different types of NBS speaker cable/IC combinations, the IC was always more impressive than the speaker cable (even at the Statement level). I do not know if there is a synergy between NBS Statement IC and OTA speaker cable like there is between NBS and AN Kondo, but I am eager to find out. In my eagerness to replace all of my NBS cables with OTA, I did not try out too many hybrid arrangments. This was because of 1.) my initial excitement with OTA (esp. in the phono cable application, which was a total success, after the RFI problem was solved), 2.) the eagerness to hear an entirely OTA cable infrastructure (the effect of the cable is additive), 3.) the perceived sonic difference between NBS and OTA, which led me to believe that, when used together, they would cancel each other's strengths. I am actually going to go back and see if an NBS IC/ OTA speaker cable combination is not the best combination yet. It certainly turned out true that and NBS / OTA power cord arrangement turned out the best. But this will take time, because of the need to rearrange equipment to fit the NBS back into the system--which is difficult because of the stiffness and weight of the cable.
As far as sead's tip about suspending the OTA cables, I always kept my cables off of the floor. But I did recently notice that some of the OTA digital cables were sort of tangled up with the analog ICs. A few were even touching the metal parts of my rack. Once I straightened the cables out, re-introducing some distance between them, and isolated them from the rack, the sound actually improved even more: become even more clear, more extended, rich, and organized. This was also the case when I noticed a while back that too much OTA speaker cable was resting against my speaker cabinet, and picking up resonances from the drivers. Moving them away helped out quite alot. |
Asa: The reason I addressed you the first time, whenever that was is that I felt you were here to patronize and not to bring a constructive contribution on the very subject of the topic. This you have proved yourself to be true beyond any reasonable doubt. We could have discussed NBS, we could have discussed Kondo (for which I have great respect btw) but we never could discuss OTA for a simple reason of you not having a clue of the product and that was the topic (to which I have tried to remind you on several ocassions). And, you wanted me to give you arguments against your hallucination (dunno what else could it be...). No way. So you got insulted... As I was when you first started name calling with " Sead don't be horse's ass". You may have selective memory but you were the one who started with insults and I certainly hope my provocations were never as hillbillish as you indeed acted. And, yes, I knew about your involvement with NBS from the beginning but I didn't feel like discrediting you. This may be a personal thing for you, but then, you must have seen too many gladiator movies... Audio is a hobby for me, more than anything else. Rational people don't kill each other over a hobby.
My intention was never to leave such a deep mark on your emotions.... Scares me even to think of what would happen if I was seriously attacking you and not kidding with you.... Btw, out of the personal interest, if I would ask you to send me one of your novels to read it, would you? I guess you would not. See, that is where we differ... Besides, of course, that I like to joke and you don't. I wish you prove me wrong on the last two assumptions.
Ah, I kinda find that "Er, cheers" cute.
Bwhite: Yes, sadly, I knew you would get insulted with my last post. Unfortunately. This has become a vanity fair, otherwise you would read my post in different eyes (maybe your own, for a change?) and not come with yet more sarcasm toward Ivo ("Who is he?"..... well, who are you for that matter, who is anyone?). Again, I tell you and you may call it deffensive from my side, it is perfecly great thing that you find your cabling arrangement suits better your setup than OTA, which was originally designed and intended for 47Labs setup and it comes as a surprise to me, believe it or not, that it works in other setups at all.
To clear something out: My involvement with 47Labs as their European distributor was always very open and clear, althought my posting here is of a strictly private nature, and to stop you wondering about my interest in the subject, I will openly call upon everyone who has bought OTA cable in Europe as a consequence of this thread to stand up and say it loud. If anyone, except for Ivo (who was using OTA before either one of you in here knew it existed) and Slawney (who was sold PhonoCube in agreement with local dealer but supplied directly by myself for reasons beyond your interest, but quite benign) shows up, that will really be a proof of my interest in this thread other than a personal, plain audiophile joe interest to help out with some experience on topic called by someone else. If there will be nobody to say it, I will kindly ask you to stop with this dealer crap. This forum is dominantly an US affair and my affiliation with 47Labs stops on the shores of Atlantic as I am not at all involved with 47Labs operations in US of A. Or, if I have even oferred to sell anything to anyone who has participated to this thread up to this point, please say it loud and clear, otherwise shut up. I don't sell things here, I don't buy things here.... So, please, what my interest in Audiogon or in anyone in here liking OTA or not could be other than a simple passtime? Good thing is summer is coming and I will be playing tennis much more than wasting time on the net....
Of course, I am very much interested that 47Labs customers in Europe are pleased with their products and our dealers but that kind of correspondence I would never allow to become a public affair unless clients themselves feels like disclosing it. Customer support of Konus Audio Systems is something entirely different. The fact that Sead Lejlic as a private person discusses music, audio and yes, 47Labs things with people that are not even potentially customers from Europe obviously has a confusing effect on a $$$ orriented mind. Surprisingly, there are cultures in the world which are less materialistic oriented than yours and where not just about everyone you talk to is trying to sell you something and where you don't have to make appointment to your wife and your friends for some "social interference".
Slawney: No need to get cought into crossfire non-productive (except for lingual exhibitions) argues. Perhaps you are right, in real life we probably would all get fine together over a pint of lager but people get matchbox flammable on the net. Nothing new. I just enjoy exploring this aspect of human behaviour (well, Asa may be brilliant in his English usage but certainly is a dilletant in psychology, plain boring to argue with and I hope getting along with him is more fun?). :-)
Cheers,
Sead
p.s. If a further desire exists to continue with the pissing contest of a personal nature, you are welcome but in the next two, three weeks I will be away. Besides, it is boring.... |
Ok, Slawney, let us see...
1. I dealt with you in the same way I dealt with BWhite. Given your prior experience with me in personal, one-on-one detailed discusions on the very same cable, namely, NBS Statement, what did you think I meant by "push" in the CONTEXT of the rather playful post directed at BWhite? In other words, given the context of your quite specific personal experience of no "pushing" from me on the very same issue, the context of comeraderie of the post to Bwhite, much as I've had previously with you, the context of BWhite's evident stereo experience, comparable to your own in general terms (leading one to assume, with due credit to BWhite, that he is hardly "push-able"), what misguided probability analysis led you to the conclusion that "push" should be excised from its context for your suddenly literal purposes? If anything, one would tentatively conclude the opposite - especially a writer. Tell me, how did I treat you? And, Bwhite, did I push you in the sense of the negative that Slawney now implies was his justifiable assumption? Hmmm...
2. Tell me, after you have fully read the above discussion between myself and sead last year, what positions do I take which you feel are unsubstantiated or irrational vis-a-vis sead? Specifically, tell me which ones and I will explain them more fully. My position was/is that sead refused to answer my inquiry regarding what was the basis of his negative blanket characterizations of my fully laid out arguments. I can not have a dialogue with someone who answers such an inquiry by name calling or tangential list-making. That you would say I didn't treat sead with the same cognitive rigor and fairness as you claim for yourself in your "scientific reports" is itself, in my opinion, symptomatic of your continued bias vis-a-vis sead. Tell me what you think is unclear in those arguments. If you determine they are not unclear, then what do you think would lead you to say so in the context of sead and myself?
3. On your purported defense of sead, I stand by my statement. I believe the sum of your original post, in its context, is illustrative of my perception.
4. On "Er, cheers", of course I was being cynical. I guess I wonder how you didn't have too much trouble with that context but difficulty with the original one discussed in #1 herein. That said, my cynicism was consequent to your post - which deserved it for the reasons stated and did not, at least, hide its humor-tinged wryness (the "er")behind feigned offers of "diplomacy" - and, evidently, for you, was instructive (YES!!, for the selectively literal, that's a touch, not hateful, of condescension, brushed with an air of wry hope of finality :)).
Really, Slawney, you always seemed like a bright guy with good ears - which is why I approached my Editor at the time numerous times for a job for you writing after you asked if I would - so this could go on ad infinitum with you as sead's foil.
If you want to take up sead's banner in the "discussion" he and I had last year, then I'm game. It would be fun and I know - based on the CONTEXT of our prior relationship - that it would be fair and absent the name-calling, list-making that sead resorted to.
So, I'll let you serve first. ("non-provocatively", so we'll all be sure)...You pick the topic that relates to sound, musical experience and wire et al in those contexts. Otherwise, I think we should let this discussion return to observations on OTA and subjects rel;ated thereto (like my inquiry on the possible relationship of thin gauge wires and similar performance). |
Asa, while I agree with some of what you say in your response, I need to clarify some things.
First, your first correction (1. in the above) of me.
Asa (04-30-02): "Where do you get off insinuating that I "personally" got someone to buy cable and now have some kind of vested "personal" interest that they keep them? You'd better read this stuff again because you are thinking too much."
Ok, I will read what you wrote on this forum on 04-25-02, more or less to Bwhite as addressee, after his latest assessment of OTA, and the return to NBS/AN Kondo.
Here are your own words:
"Bwhite: ahh, you've ended up where we started. I have been watching to see if you liked the OTA better than the hideously expensive NBS/KSL I pushed you towards - and had been feeling bad that you could have been just as happy with the OTA (which I haven't heard). Glad you still like the KSL/NBS combo."
It is the use of this phrase "pushed you towards" which I would like to remind you of. Since you are a writer, I will ask you a simple hermeneutic question: What do you mean by the verb "push" in the phrase "pushed you towards?
1. to exert pressure or force
2. to thrust, shove or drive
3. to follow up vigorously, promote (a campaign, a claim)
4. to bring into a critical state; esp. to make critically needful
5. to urge or promote the use, sale, success, etc.
All meanings are listed by Websters. How should I understand what you wrote?
And, as a second question, what is wrong with the word "influence" by comparison to "push"? It is actually the weakest power to produce effects on others in the scale that goes from Influence, Authority, Prestige, and Weight.
To go back to Websters.
"Influence" implies the power of persons or things (whether or not exerted consciously or overtly) to affect others.
"Authority" implies the power to command acceptance, belief, obedience, etc., based on strength of character, expertness of knowledge, etc.
"Prestige" implies the power to command esteem or admiration, based on brilliance of achievement or outstanding superiority
"Weight" implies influence that is more or less preponderant in its effect.
Influence, authority, prestige, weight are clearly attractive features. Judging by a few signs, some members of audiogon attribute these features to you. Personally, I attribute influence, authority, and prestige to you, based on numerous posts. It is up to Bwhite to say if he gives you influence, authority, prestige, or weight in his selection of cables. I would guess from previous e-mail correspondence with him that he gives you authority, even prestige based on your ability to put together systems with well-selected components. But I assumed "influence" based on the fact that you both use similar cable systems, and even have the same preamp (Syrah) on one of your systems, although that may have changed.
Here is what you wrote on 04-25-02:
"If you remember, I've also have the Audionote IC from CD to pre, and NBS Pro from pre to amp in this second system and found combo complementary."
I do not think it is a coincidence that Bwhite has a similar set-up. The fact that he does, does not necessarily imply your influence. And if you did influence Bwhite, I never meant to imply a "nefarious" motivation. You are absolutely wrong if you think that I was implying you had a wicked, villainous, iniquitous intent in "pushing" Bwhite "towards" NBS / AN. These are superior cables, and the fact that they work well together is a valuable discovery. The fact that Bwhite has started to describe the differences between OTA and AN Kondo is also valuable. I believe someone asked you to do the same, asa, a long time ago, annd I do not recall your differentiation of the two. And this is for a very good reason: you have not heard OTA, as you yourself say. This is completely honest. If we go backk to Redkiwi's request at the very beginning of this forum, he said: "If you have not heard this cable, please don't bother posting your opinions of how it MUST sound here." I am not sure if you have actually done what Redkiwi asked those who have not heard OTA not to do. But in some of your reflections on the cognitive structure of the listener, and the differentiation of different types of listening, as well as the appeal that certain cables (not OTA is mentioned, but I think it is implied) has to "that part of our minds that listens more analytically" I think, yes, you, asa, are starting to post opinions of "how OTA MUST sound."
Second, here is the second thing (2.) that you correct me on.
"Inauthentic chimers-in who start off a post with a bunch of statements about how nice everyone is - establishing how nice they are - and then proceed to deride (Sead insinuating that Bwhite is trying to posture himself as an audio "God") and mischaracterize (saying that I "disqualified automatically" OTA - a complete lie) to others detriment and then end it all with a "cheers" (Sead's MO) And now a further mischaracterization from you, Slawney, that Sead did not commit these, um, "errors", and that he's just so-so misunderstood."
I never claimed that Sead did not provoke you or Bwhite. What I dislike is the fact that there is not a real explication/argument (in German, we would say, "Auseinandersetzung") between you and sead. All of us here could learn alot from a genuine dialogue between you and sead.
As far as your third correction, I am not trying to defend sead. Clearly, his tactics are provocative. So are yours. You sign the previous post with his moniker, "er, cheers" with your "er" reminding us that your complimentary close is meant entirely cynically. It is actually a citation of sead's cynical complimentary close of 04-29-02.
As far as "conclusions," I meant this word in the sense that each experiment has a "conclusion." In case you have not noticed, I have been modelling alot of my posts on this forum following the format of the scientific report. To perform an experiment with OTA, and not state a conclusion to me is, well, inconclusive, and not very productive. Bwhite, I feel, has concluded FOR NBS/AN AGAINST OTA. That is his right. If he explains the reason why he concludes in this way, then I will learn from him. He has, in fact, raised a few questions in my mind about a possible "subtractive aspect" of OTA, which I will be listening for when I revert back to the NBSs.
In your fourth correction, you write:
"dialogue works fine when everyone offers theirs' authentically, as an adult, and is willing to state why and how they arrived at that opinion."
I completely agree with this statement. However, I do not agree with what you insinuate in your next sentence:
"I'm soooo tired of hearing on these threads people who evidentally have a strong sense of opinion on the gear they like - which, Slawney, I know you do - to then at some juncture say that all opinions are equal, as if, by offering this observation, they are settling down a class of schoolchildren (and they the lone adult seeing from on high the foibles of others)."
I am opposed to a radical subjectivism or relativism of the "all opinions are equal" type. What I actually mean was better formulated on 04-27-02:
"As soon as one enters the field of personalized judgement on this score, argument becomes insane, demented, weird, extravagant, and pointless given the different requirements of all of our systems."
Let me put it this way. To the extent that the participants cannot visit one another (some of us are very far away from each other geographically) to listen to each of our different systems, we really do not share the same objective conditions on which a reliable discussion of the performance of OTA can be based. For instance, I cannot really evaluate why albert said that OTA "lacked weight" in comparison to his standard ICs (which I think are PAD) since I did not hear his system with OTA and with PAD. Nevertheless, I can (based on his "weight," and it would be wrong not to recognize that albert does have alot of "weight" here) assume that there is the possibility that OTA can "lack weight" in certain systems with a SONY 9000 player.
Last but not least, your request for me to not defend sead:
"Slawney, in the future, let Sead defend his own "errors"; you get caught up in them when you try."
implies 1.) that I tried to defend him (maybe you are right here), and that 2.) I should not in the future do this (I will try not to) and that 3.) anyone who defends him gets caught up in his "errors" by implication.
It is 3.) that I reject. Let me make this perfectly clear asa:
I have not said the same things to you as sead has, and I have and take no responsibility for what he said to you.
I am glad that you invite me to e-mail you personally, which I will do so even if I do NOT suspect that you influenced someone.
|
Bwhite, my name is Ivo Sunjic. I'm 45, married, no kids. I live in Sarajevo. I'm economist and I work, from time to time, as a film production manager in the Saga film production company in Sarajevo. But, most of the incomes that I make is through the offices I rent here in Sarajevo.
I'm an audiophile for 25 years. Tried a owned a lot of so-called high end gear.
I listen to 47 laboratory Flatfish/Progression/Dumpty CD player, Gaincard/Humpty amp and Konus Audio Essence full range speakers. Cablings are OTA, from power cords to interconnects and speaker cables.
No, I'm not registered here in Audiogon. Honestly, I didn't think it was important. And, I'm not a person who like to discuss so much about the audio through the internet. Sometimes it is difficult to express your feelings in English language. I sent 4-5 posts to the Audio Asylum and a few posts here, on Audiogon. Oh, yes. I registered my system on Audio Asylum's inmate systems. I made a couple of contacts with some good people asking for their advice and that's all. I have to admit that's poor internet biography to get some credibility on Audiogon.
Sead and I share the same passion for audio for years. We live in the same town and of course we know each other!
So, I send posts only when I feel it's important to say something which would be useful to someone. Your statement that OTA could be "too fast" just made me wish to say something.
I have to say that the quantity of sarcasm and irony from the following posts really surprised me :(
I really sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention. I appreciate your efforts in order to achieve good, natural sound from your system.
I hope you believe that I'm not a ghost!
Best wishes,
Ivo |
Whoa! While I would have enjoyed giving Sead a piece of my mind after reading his post, I felt that my unabridged response to him wasn't appropriate for this forum. I restrained and thus settled on simply letting him know that I was offended by his remark.
Sead has been an informative contributor to this forum over the past 9 months, however he has been rather defensive in situations regarding those who post comparisons - or in the case of Asa - who simply suggested that other manufacturers have been very successful with small gague wire. Sead's flippant attitude toward Asa ever since he drew that parallel between thin gague OTA and thin gague Kondo has been totally unfair and completely without merit.
The fact that Sead is a dealer for OTA should also be mentioned and may help to clarify his interest in this product.
Ivo (whoever HE is) posted as an unregistered Audiogon user and we all know how much credibility those folks have. It seems that Sead is the only one here who knows Ivo. Interesting. |
Yes, Slawney, I'll correct you.
1. Where do you get off insinuating that I "personally" got someone to buy cable and now have some kind of vested "personal" interest that they keep them? You'd better read this stuff again because you are thinking too much. I like you so I'll chalk it up to quick fingers on keys and not enough self-reflection. The next time you insinuate that someone "influenced" someone else, the insinuation being that there was something subtlely nefarious in the motivation, you'd better think twice. Frankly, its an off-handed swipe at Bwhite that somehow he can't make his own decisions - which he can.
2. Sead (all the way back in November...) wouldn't honestly engage on a dialogue - failing to offer arguments for his positions while criticizing others' positions and finally resorting to the childishness of calling me names - and I called him out on it. He chose, evidently, to quiet-up and I let it go. What I don't get is your riding to his defense, mistakenly and months later (because, if you look, I haven't said anything to him since then, even ignoring his 4-29-02 swipe).
To wit: anyone who reads Sead's 4-29-02 comment above can readily discern his flippancy and to claim differently is, well...You know what really gets me about this? Inauthentic chimers-in who start off a post with a bunch of statements about how nice everyone is - establishing how nice they are - and then proceed to deride (Sead insinuating that Bwhite is trying to posture himself as an audio "God") and mischaracterize (saying that I "disqualified automatically" OTA - a complete lie) to others detriment and then end it all with a "cheers" (Sead's MO), or some other self-serving smarm thats supposed to make it all sweet again. And now a further mischaracterization from you, Slawney, that Sead did not commit these, um, "errors", and that he's just so-so misunderstood. Maybe Sead is alright in a deal, or over the phone, or shooting the audio bull one-on-one, but so far, he has a penchant of popping into discussions with an inauthentic sweet tone masking an actual derision.
3. No one is stating "conclusions", just opinions, and the thread is just fine. Where you've perceived the circumstance that's its getting out of hand - as in, insinuating that an opinion becomes a "conclusion" when, allegedly, offered to shut someone else up - perhaps has more to do with your desire to defend Sead, assumably, than the tone of this dialogue presently.
4. As much as we would all like to maintain out egalitarian self-delusions, ears are not equal and opinion is not radically subjective; in context, some opinion is more true than others. But dialogue works fine when everyone offers theirs' authentically, as an adult, and is willing to state why and how they arrived at that opinion. I'm soooo tired of hearing on these threads people who evidentally have a strong sense of opinion on the gear they like - which, Slawney, I know you do - to then at some juncture say that all opinions are equal, as if, by offering this observation, they are settling down a class of schoolchildren (and they the lone adult seeing from on high the foibles of others). There is a difference between the democratic notion that all have equal access to voice opinion and the fact that some opinion is better than another - all displines of knowledge depend on it. Yes, I know that opinion in audio is system-dependant, but that does not reduce all opinion into an undifferentiated morase of, er, "equality". Why people who obviously have a strong opinion feel compelled to at some point trot out a position that then claims all opinion is equal is beyond me. It does always seem to happen though when someone is being "diplomatic".
Slawney, in the future, let Sead defend his own "errors"; you get caught up in them when you try. Oh, and the next time you are wondering if, in fact, I "influenced" someone, you have my personal e-mail address. Just ask me.
Er, cheers,
Mark (Asa) |
Bwhite, asa, sead. I have corresponded with all three of you by e-mail, bought equipment from two of you, and know for certain that you ALL are extremely gentlemanly, highly experienced audiophiles. Why is it that you are so prickly towards one another? Is it the anonymous aspect of the internet? I can't help but feel that the three of you would get along quite well in person. Sead knows that Asa patiently sold me his old NBS Statements--with the best advice about them that I have ever heard. But does Asa know that Sead, travelling from Sarajevo to Frankfurt, personally delivered my 47 Labs PhonoCube? It seems we are getting to the stage in this forum where people are stating conclusions about A/B tests between OTA and CABLE X. This inevitably involves a high degree of personal judgement and taste, which can give rise to some difficult argumentation. In addition, some of us are running OTA with 47 Labs equipment (a totally synergetic application), and some not. There also seems to be other personal factors related to our exchanges. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems Asa personally influenced Bwhite to buy AN and NBS cables, and thus Asa has a personal interest in Bwhite liking NBS and AN cables: after all, they did cost Bwhite alot. If Bwhite liked OTA better, then buying expensive NBS and AN Kondo cables would have been a mistake. Even though I was interested in NBS cables before I contacted him, Asa would probably like me to be satisfied with his old NBS Statements. And then there is sead, who sold me two full OTA Kits, who probably wants me to like them as much as he likes them. What a strange interlacing of interests. Added to this, people who love 47 Labs equipment tend to have a certain sonic bias, sometimes severely opposed to the generic (e.g. Krell) high end sound, so that their opinions will be opposed to this sector. I take it that ivo is one of these. Please forgive me if I have got this all wrong. Just an effort at diplomacy. |
Sead - I am actually quite offended by YOUR comment and less offended by Ivo's. |
Sorry for keeping out of discussion for so long, been quite busy lately. Hope everyone is doing fine?
Bwhite: Why the sarcasm? So, you have some expensive amps, do we need to establish you as a god or something? Don't take it personally, Ivo did not mean to offend you, he's too nice a guy for that. Besides, you better should hear his setup before jumping on... I am sure you would get an idea or two about setup sinergy after hearing it.
Nobody said OTA is the best cable in the Universe and it is quite normal that there may be setups in which other cables may work better or better suit owners preferences. Even if look at the NBS line, there are some cheaper models that suit some very expensive setups better than the Statement.
I find quite odd the remark you made: "It seems a little too fast to be accurate...". The way I see it, there is no such thing as too fast, only what I've seen so many times is too slow. But, I can accept that slower cables may appeal to certain audiophiles. For me, faster is more accurate as it enables better reproduction of high order harmonics. If that is achived over the complete audible freq. range and not to introduce the time domain smear in ref .to the freq. range through the variance in impedance, then it is a full score.
Slawney: looking forward seeing you in Frankfurt. I am coming on May 7th. You know the hotel we are staying at.
Dekay: I wish you the fast return to work and let us know how long run of OTA works. I wouldn't be overly optimistic but then, it may work... Haven't tried it as I keep runs always as short as possible, longest I tried was 3m but that was in the show. Normally, I use 2m for speakers and rarely longer IC than 0.7m.
Asa: ... nothing for you this time... I see you are quite happy not everyone like the cable you haven't even heard (which, of course didn't prevent you from disqualifying it automatically). I always like to see people happy. :-)
To all those who like and use OTA: Try to keep the cables off the floor, in the air. You may use fishing line or some cable elevators. No need for fancy stuff, just something non-metallic to keep the cable in the air. Fishing line is even better, hung from the ceiling, gets closer to the real air floating which would be the ideal position for OTA (as for any other cable).
To those who doesn't like OTA: cheer up, it is not the end of the world.
Cheers,
Sead |
Bwhite: OTA demands nothing less than the silver-wired Convergents :-) Dekay: those are very long runs of OTA speaker cable. When I was getting started with the kit, I tried out two lengths of OTA speaker cable: 3.4 meters and 1.8 meters. The shorter run was A LOT better in nearly every parameter. I know that Yoshi at Sakura Systems is pretty adamant about keeping OTA speaker cables as short as possible. But if that is what the satellite speakers need ... keep us posted. |
BWhite: Your system looks pretty good to me. Lamm and Syrah (yum yum:-). Albert tried a pair of my OTA IC's, quite some time ago, on a Sony 9000 player and felt that they lacked weight in comparison to his standard IC's. I did not have enough spares to allow him to try the OTA on the analog setup as he requires two of everything. This is system dependent as I have not experienced any thinning of the sound in the various setups that I have used so far, but would not be surprised if this were to eventually happen. How is it working in the HT system (with longer runs)? Still no problems after having had a chance to listen to it for a while? I am still interested in running some satellite speakers in the bedroom (once I get back to work) as this would be more cost effective than maintaining a separate system, plus we really don't want any gear in there (a small TV is our limit). I figure the runs would have to be approx. 40' long unless I decide to channel out the floor, then 25' would do. |
Hi Slawney - Thanks for cheering me up! For a minute there I thought I needed to sell the LAMMs and look for something else which might be good enough for the OTA. What do you think? Are Tenors good enough? :)
Let us know what you think about going back to NBS... |
Bwhite: puncto primal, puncto final. By returning to the AN/NBS combination, it seems that these expensive cables cannot be surpassed by OTA in your system. (BTW, your Lamm amplifiers are probably "good enough for OTA" ;-) Peronally, I have been proceding systematically through a series of OTA ferrite experiments for the last few weeks. To cut a long story short, the changes inflicted on the system through ferrite manipulation did not seem to me an unambiguous improvement upon closer listen. The most annoying aspect at points was the infiltration of the magnetic field inside digital components, and even onto speaker connection posts, as well as resistance changes on OTA, and problems with maintaining its clarity and pacing. At this point, I think I get the best results with the ferrites attached to non-audio component cables (lamps, tel. answering machine,...), reaching the same conclusion as sead did long ago. As far as OTA power cables, they are just as neutral as OTA signal cables, and with my rather poor mains I am back to the old glory of NBS Statement PCs for three crucial connections, with OTA still on three AC connections. This OTA/NBS power cable combo actually works very well, the OTAs being cut to the size appropriate for best component positioning, the NBSs being fitted in as best they can and creating an amelioration to the mains current, more extension, smoothness, volume, immediacy, and engendering a sound stage in which the listener believes that they hear events residing very deep in the recording. I am very happy with the OTA analog interconnects: when I replaced the NBS Statement interconnects with OTAs, I heard--for one thing--an unexpected improvement in bass definition and contour. I noticed the same with the OTA speaker cable: the amps in my collection (the most powerful of which is 35 watts) were working hard just to drive the NBS speaker cable, let alone the speakers themselves. For this reason (and others) I agree with Redkiwi that OTA speaker cable is hard to beat. It relays "sforzandos" much better than NBS speaker cables, and, overall, sounds through OTA speaker cables have the exactitude they have in dreams, with only the glistening due to the sound alone, just like the world itself, so integrally there, the sound stage a "parallel universe," and a form of illusion. But as soon as one enters the field of personalized judgement on this score, argument becomes insane, demented, weird, extravagant, and pointless given the different requirements of all of our systems. Just to satisfy myself on this score, I am going to replace the OTAs with the NBS Statement interconnects and speaker cables after three months of non-use and see what better satisfies me: OTA or NBS. I cannot help but believe that the operation of switching cables to compare them in order to believe finally "It's true! Cable X is a superior cable with my audio system!" is a permanent, pathetic, physical sonic demand in me, a kind of escape from a congenital and metaphysical incompletion, and dissatisfaction:-). |
Ivo from your post, I gather you are very enthusiastic about OTA and have had good results. I am happy for you.
Maybe my system just isn't good enough for OTA. :) |
OTA cables are so natural and neutral that they sometimes present how the rest of the system is bad. It's not the problem of OTA, it's the problem of poor source, amp or speakers.
Then, people put some thick, heavy, mega-buck cables and think that they get the "emotion" back.
OTA is "too fast"? No, OTA paces perfectly in my 47 labs/Essence setup. And it paces excellent in a non-47 labs systems.
Cables that “manufacture” sound are, obviously, good complement to the same kind of electronics & speakers and everything together works “perfectly” to mask the music and to enter hi fi.
Fortunately, I avoided that!
Ivo |
Hi Asa - The OTA vs. the KSL-SPc (copper) speaker cables is really no contest. While the OTA is decent, it lacks the feeling of the KSL. The OTA is pretty amazing though when you consider how much music comes through that little wire and the bass is very good. The reason I would suggest OTA as a good speaker cable is simply because of its neutral character - which would allow one to more easily fine tune the system with interconnects. In my case (tri-wire speakers) changing speaker cables is a MAJOR pain in the rear. The KSL has more body and weight than the OTA (which my speakers need) but remains quite neutral - clean - effortless.
Oh.. another thing I noticed with the OTA was the pace seemed odd to me. Perhaps others can comment. It seems a little too fast to be accurate.... any thoughts??
The KSL I am using between my CD and Preamp is the new KSL-LP1 which is actually a double run of Kondo's Silver AN-Vz repackaged.
Initially, I settled on NBS Statements for between the preamp and amps but - since I recently sold my source (Mephisto II) and switched to a Sony XA777ES which is a touch more detailed than the Mephisto and is a little more "electronic" in its tonality, I think I prefer a run of Stealth PGS between the amps and preamp. The Softer sounding and more organic Stealth PGS combined with the Sony is quite comperable to the softer sounding Mephiso with NBS Statements. Whereas the Sony and the NBS are not an optimal match in my system since they are just ever so slightly over the top in their combined presentation.
Using 100% OTA made it more difficult to get the right sound from my system. |
Bwhite: ahh, you've ended up where we started. I have been watching to see if you liked the OTA better than the hideously expensive NBS/KSL I pushed you towards - and had been feeling bad that you could have been just as happy with the OTA (which I haven't heard). Glad you still like the KSL/NBS combo. If you remember, I've also have the Audionote IC from CD to pre, and NBS Pro from pre to amp in this second system and found combo complementary. What happened to your feelings on the KSL spkr wire vs. OTA?
A lot of times a cable will do something that at first sounds great - usually appealing to that part of our minds that listens more analytically when we first sit down. Its much harder, and takes some real time listening, to discern those cables that also help us fall into the music, so to speak. Since we aren't thinking in those deeper listening spaces, its harder to then go back later and think about what was best; trying to think about a time when you weren't thinking is tough! And, takes time for the answer to come to you. That's why you should always live with a product for some time, why its dangerous to buy from a dealer based on short-term exposure, and why these threads are helpful in contacting others who have put in that time and reflection/contemplation on the products they have listened to.
Thank you, bwhite, and all of the others, for putting in the time with the OTA and letting us know about your experiences. |
Hi Outlier, I have tried nearly everything within reason.. and when I say that, I mean most top end products. I currently use a Audio Note Kondo KSL between the CD player and preamp followed by NBS Statement between the pre and amplifier. I selected these cables above all others tested because of what they do in my system. Honestly, I haven't found a "giant killing" cable yet. The better cables always seem to be more expensive - go figure!!
From my experience most of the audio cables from various manufacturers which reside at the top of their line up are ALL quite good -they are just different. Which ones are best for a given system is simply a matter or personal preference, and system synergy. The only real way to find out which wones ork best for you would be to try 'em all... Unfortunately.
The OTA is a good cable but using it in a system comprised of 100% OTA didn't work for me. I did however have better success with the OTA as speaker cable than interconnect. |
Hi BWhite, I'm relieved to know I'm not the only one questioning the OTA's preeminence. Still, as you say, the OTA is at the very least an outstanding bargain compared to other offerings anywhere near it's price range. I wonder whether you can share with us what cable set-up you went with. I find myself tempted by the best from Tara Labs and Synergistic, not to mention NBS and Nordost, but I wonder whether there really is some sleeper cables that are expensive but can compete with the very expensive. Anyway, happy listening. |
Hi Outlier - After 500 hours with OTA, I ended up going back to some very high end interconnects. While the OTA is good and even spectacular for its price (based on the cost of $600 to wire an entire system - not the material cost) I ultimately felt that the emotion of the music vanished when the OTA entered my system. I guess that OTA working a miracle for me was wishfull thinking. When I built my system, I purchased and tested countless interconnects - after about 6 months of testing/trial/error, I managed to find the right match and thus obtained a sonic flavor that I really enjoy and suits my system. The resulting sound is simply the best I can do with my existing components - unless of course there is a cable I do not know about.
When I removed the OTA and re-inserted my old interconnects, I felt so much better about my system. |
Dekay: I know - Brulee introduced me to the OTA. Still, I have fond memories of the FIM - just my experience/impression that the FIM had something special I'm not quite getting (yet) with the OTA. It's still getting better though. Also, the recent removal of my PS300 may have had a key role to play in the recent loss of that 'something'. I hope to get a Hydra at some stage soon, so that may put my system back in gear. |
Outlier: Ask Brulee. LOL. He replaced FIM with the OTA. |
The significant noise/buzz I was hearing with the OTA has dissipated as I've located the issue - the TV cable connection to my system via VCR to Preamp - a typical problem I guess. Anyway, now things are sounding far quieter. What got me confused was that when I swapped in Nordost SPM from pre to power in place of the OTA there was no noise/buzz. With the OTA back in place, the sound reappeared. I guess some cables like OTA may be more sensitive to such noise. Anyway, problem essentially solved now. Also, the cables are showing additional promise - fingers crossed they'll continue to improve. I wish I still had my FIM speaker cable so I could compare. The FIM really was so good. |
I have found OTA cables to be as quiet or more quiet than shielded cables. I also found them merely promising early on, but am surprised you are not noticing the superior pacing of the OTA as this is present throughout burn in. I certainly found them superior to SPM, but have not tried FIM Gold. If you remain unimpressed, I suggest you put your old interconnects back in first. The OTA as a speaker cable is much more difficult to beat. |
...does it matter if the positive and negative sections of one channel of an OTA interconnect are an inch or so longer/shorter than their respective positive or negative counterpart?
*I* don't think it matters and I don't think it's possible to get them the exact same length. As long as you keep it close, everything should be okay. |
Hi OTA owners. I bought the OTA kit about six weeks ago and have been enjoying the cables since. I have three questions though.
I've found initial impressions good, certainly for the price. However, I still find that my old set up of Nordost SPM interconnects (RCA) and FIM Gold speaker cables were far better. I found the soundsage fuller, greater seperation of instruments and more transparency with my old cable set-up. This is not to say OTA has not been a great purchase - it's at least excellent value for the price compared to my old cable set-up. What I'm wondering is whether the cables will get that much better as they burn-in, compared to what I'm hearing now. I guess my OTA set curretnly has about 70 hours or so on them so far. I know for some people the cable search has ended with OTA - I can't say I feel that way just yet.
Also, I find that recently I'm hearing some noise from my system that wasn't there before. I turned my preamp and source off and the noise is still there - so I guess it's isolated to amps and possibly from the OTA speaker cables. I also find that the noise is only there in the evening. So, my second question is whether other OTA users have experienced anything similar. It could be because I recently sold my PS Audio 300 Powerplant and maybe the noise appeared after it's absense, so OTA's not to fault, or something else happened with the power in my house.
Finally, does it matter if the positive and negative sections of one channel of an OTA interconnect are an inch or so longer/shorter than their respective positive or negative counterpart? I've had to recut a couple of interconnects a couple of times, so part of the interconnect is a little longer than the other, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, I'd welcome any insights on OTA related noise issues, whether the cables really do shine given more burn-in and any potential issues with slight length differences for a given interconnect. I can be patient on the burn-in - I am just curious about other folks' experience. Thanks folks. By the way my system is as follows:
YBA CD1a Blue Laser CD Player (with 2 YBA diamond PCs)
Sonic Frontiers Line 3 Preamp (Shunyata Sidewinder PC)
Blue Circle BC2 Hybrid mono amps (Shunyata Sidewinder PCs)
Audio Physic Virgo II Speakers.
All cables are OTA.
Thanks! |
