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Rythmik Vs REL Subwoofers - What to Buy?

I have an L Shaped living/dinning room.  The living room measures 13.5'x18.5' and the dining room measures 10.5'x13.5".  I have a pair of Paradigm Prestige 85F towers along the 13.5' wall hooked up to an ARCAM AVR550.  They are currently placed 8' apart with a 72" stereo cabinet between them leaving 45' on both sides of the cabinet.  This wall shares the outside 13.5' wall in the dinning room.  There are two 3' walls that narrow the opening to the dining room.

I am trying to decide what subwoofers to add to my system.  Three dealers suggested I add a pair of subwoofers rather than adding just one based on my room dimensions and room layout.  I am trying to decide between adding a pair of Rythmik F12 Signature subwoofers or a pair of REL T/9i's or a pair of REL S3's and locate them next to the towers.  However, because of limited space I may not be able to consider the S3 subwoofers, as they will crowd my towers more and it will most likely require moving my towers closer together from 8' apart to 7' apart.  The dealers I have talked to suggested I locate the subwoofers in the corners.    

I have an upright piano along the 18' wall to the right and I would prefier to use just one subwoofer located to the left of the piano located approximately 5' to 6' in front of the right front speaker.  This would prevent cluttering the wall where my towers are located and it would make our room look better.  If I locate just one subwoofer next to the piano, the speaker would point directly into the opening of the dining room.

Could you please advise as to whether to go with a Rythmik or a REL subwoofer?  I like the idea of the Rythmik Direct Servo technology.  The amplifier in the subwoofer has the ability to boost lower bass frequencies at lower listening volumes to prevent fall off.  However, would they sound too boomy?  I talked to a highly regarded speaker manufacturer and he told me if I went with the T/9i's, they rated them to go down to 28 Hz at -6 db.  He told me based on this, they would actually be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  He went on to say this is woofer rather than subwoofer territory.  I have listened to both the REL T/9i and the REL S3 and I was not able to hear a significant difference in bass extension when they were played with a pair Bowers & Wilkins 702's.  However, I liked the way they blended in with the main speakers.  They were seamless and I swore all of the sound was coming out of the towers.  The problem is there are many recordings that contain bass frequencies of 24 Hz and possibly lower and if I go with the REL's I would not be able to hear anything lower than 35 Hz.  The Rythmik Signature F12's play down to 14 Hz.  The speaker manufacture I talked to makes custom Rythmik subwoofers and he told me the Rythmik subs are the most musical subwoofers he has ever heard.  Rythmik sells only direct and it would be helpful to be able to hear one before making my decision.

I listen to 70% music and 30% HT and my first priority is music.

If you were in my shoes, what would you recommend I do?
128x128larry5729

Showing 9 responses by larry5729

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larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
Jackd,

What REL subs did you own and why did you get rid of them?
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
Sorry for typo.  I talked to Brian at Rythmik.  He was fascinating to talk to. Just wish I could listen to his Rythmik’s before pulling the trigger.  However, he does have a 45 day guarantee.
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
I talked to  RIA, the owner of Rythmik, and I was completely lien away with his knowledge.  He is also an electrical engineer and he was able to talk on a technical level just like Jim Salk can.  Jim Salk feels the Rythmik subs are extremely musical.  He also assured me they were extremely musical and work seamlessly with the mains.  He also told me the REL T/9i’s would be lucky to get down below 35 Hz.  This would prevent me from being able to hear frequencies lower than 35 Hz if those frequencies were recorded.  He also told me the REL’s work more like woofers than subwoofers.  The biggest fear is being driven out of the room. Y too much bass.  All I want is to hear the full range of frequencies as possible.  Musicality is everything.  Eventually, I hope to own a pair of Salk Song3 Encore’s.  They blew everything away at the RMAF last October below $6,000/pair.  
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
b_limo,

Thank you for your response.  I just want to keep from making another mistake.  After purchasing my Paradigm Prestige 85F towers a friend of mine sent me an article that discussed why a 3 way is better than a 2 1/2 way speaker.  So, from that day forward, I felt I purchased the wrong speakers.  My friend already knew when I was looking for speakers he was going to purchase a pair of Salk Song3 Encore speakers at the RMAF last October and I think he wanted to make himself, as usual, one up me.  Needless to say I no longer want to be around a person who needs to feel I am not on his level.  

It was interesting for you to say you like SVS and REL the most.  I always felt SVS was more for home theater.  The one thing I like about REL is the way they hook up.  It seems like their subs are designed to act more like woofers than act like subwoofers when playing music.  Maybe this is what I should be looking for.  What I don't want is to have a bassy/boomy sound system where the bass masks everything else and it drives me out of the room.  The Rythmik Direct Servo technology makes sense.  When I talked to the owner of Rythmik, he certainly did not bad mouth REL.  He just used his incredible electrical engineering background to explain why he felt his technology worked better.  However, the Rythmik looks too complicated for a beginner to hook up.  They have all kinds of ports and knobs to adjust them, but their sales person basically told me to just use the LFE hook up and use the ARCAM DIRAC system to calibrate everything.  Since LFE is for special effects, wouldn't the subwoofers sound like they are turning themselves on and off when they detect lower bass frequencies than what my towers can produce and sound jerky when playing music?  If this is the case, why do they bother to provide all of these different connections and adjustment knobs if they suggest the LFE connections on their subwoofer and my ARCAM?  Based on some of the conversations I have had with Rythmik, they must be designed to be used by experts and by audiophiles with tons of experience.  Also, because Rythmik sells direct, there are no local dealers who can come to my house and set things up.  Perhaps, this is huge reason why dealers exist.

I hope you can now see where I am coming from and why I am concerned about making yet another mistake.
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
Thanks helomech843.

Needless to say this guy is no longer my friend.  When he sent me that article about 3 way Vs 2 1/2 way speakers, I realized he one upped me on everything he owned.  Real friends don't do this nor do people who have a good self image.  I was pretty angry after he sent this article to me because I thought he knew I was buying a pair of 2 1/2 way Paradigm Prestige 85F towers and never said a word.  If he felt this way about 3 way being better, he should have said so before my purchase.  I listened to B & W;s, Martin Logan Motion 60's, Focal Arias, Golden Ear, Diffinitive Technology and the Monitor Audio Silver 8 and Silver 10 speakers before making my purchase.  When I went to a dealer to listen to the Paradigm speakers, they also carried Monitor Audio.  I listened to a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 8's and immediately told the dealer I did not remember them sounding so harsh.  When I compared them to the Paradigm Prestige 85F's, I decided on the Paradigm.  However, after weeks of listening to them in my home I have found at times the mid voicing to sound a bit harsh and I wish the tweeters were a little brighter.  The REL dealer visited my home and told me my speakers would sound a lot better after he master set them and he also mentioned if I added a pair of REL T/9i's they would clean up the vocals.  Not sure why the REL's would improve the vocals though.  Another speaker manufacturer, who I highly regard, told me the REL T/9i's are rated at 28 Hz at -6 db.  He told me, based on their specs, they would be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  In the meantime, he pointed out there are many recordings that play down to 24 Hz.  So, if I went with the REL's, I would only be able to hear bass frequencies of 35 Hz and lose the lower frequencies on the recordings.  He also told me the Rythmik subs were the most musical subwoofers he has heard to date.  He also told me they do not pound away the bass and masque the main towers.
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
bdp24, I really appreciated your input.  My problem is I have a wife who already resents the money I have spent thus far with another $5,500 to go.  I just don't want to make another mistake because I know my wife would kill me if I change some of my gear out.  I wanted to buy a system that could play both 2 channel Hi-Fi and HT without having to buy a 2 channel amplifier and an AV receiver to require changing the speaker connections back and forth.  Wish I had known about the Anthem separates and their really nice small dimension mono blocks.  They are really slick and can be stacked with the 5 channel amplifier.  I didn't know you could purchase a HT theater separately that could hook up to an audiophile amplifier for better sound quality.  However, this would have cost me about $10,000 and my wife would have had a bird.  Just wish I could spend the money on the incredible technology out there and be supported by a spouse.  It seems like this hobby is predominately supported by men.  Not sure why men find sound so fascinating.  Kind of like buy a Ford Cobra Shelby.  However, this hobby is a lot less expensive than that hobby.

bstatatmeister, I have never liked Klipsh.  I think their horns are way too harsh.  You need to listen to the SALK Song3 Encore's preiced at $6,000.  Never heard anything better priced at $25,000.
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
bdp24, thanks for your input.  I listened to a JL E12" series today.  I was not blown away.  They were not boomy which was good.  However, they cost a lot more than a pair if the Rythmik Signature 12".  Surprised you said your REL S5 is boomy and you plan to replace it with either Rythmik or SVS.  I would suggest you talk to Brian, owner of Rythmik.  He is by far the most knowledgeable person I have talked to thus far other than Jim Salk and Salk Audio.  I think I will buy a pair of the Rythmik Signature 12" after talking to both Jim Salk and with Brian at Rythmik.  That Direct Servo technology makes sense to me.  

bstatmeister, I think you need to listen to a pair of the SALK Song3 Encore's.  At $6,000/pair they sounded better than $30,000 speakers at the RMAF last October.  Problem is, they are sold direct and you might have to listen to them at an audio show.  They are simply amazing.  I promise you I do not work for SALK.  I am sure the dealers who belong to this group wish I would be quiet about how great the SALK speakers are.  However, because they are sold direct they can afford to use expensive drivers that really sound incredible.
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 
2psyop,

I ended up with a pair of REL S2’s.  Their high level connection made more sense because I wanted them to seamlessly act like an additional bass wofer on my towers.  REL told me they would also take some of the work load off my towers to produce better mid range voicing.  The key is making sure you do not set the volume too high on the REL’s.  I set mine at 40%.  I wonder what others set theirs at.  I just didn’t want the bass to sound too boomy.

It would be nice to have my system set up professionally.  One dealer specializes in Master Setting speakers.  I read up and pulled my towers further away from the way and put the REL’sin the corners.  I measured both speakers from back corners of the speakers from the back wall and the front corners of both speakers from side ways to make sure everything was the same on both sides and pointed each speaker perfectly to the listening area.  I did the same with the REL.  I was amazed by the difference in sound.  Pulling the towers forward from the back wall 18” made a huge difference.  If I had to do it all over I would still go with the REL’s.
 
larry5729's avatar
larry5729 OP
1,001 posts
 

To:  Slkinzy and Missioncoonery,

I am not sure how this discussion got reposted because this was an old discussion that ended quite a while ago.  I haven't moved my REL subwoofers for a while because I have them set into location and didn't want to move them.  I do know they were brand new REL SHO subwoofers.  

 

Missioncoonery:  I probably have my REL's set up incorrectly.  The dealer I purchased them from just told me to set the volume at 40% and also told me where to set the crossover.  I have visited the REL website to read once again about how to set them up.  It was very technical and difficult for me to understand.  

 

To Skinzy:  I think adding two not just one subwoofer was a game changer.  I have a pair of Paradigm Prestige 85F tower speakers and I wanted to be able to allow the REL subwoofers to play down further.  The REL high level connection technology has allowed them to act as woofers and blend with my speakers.  You are on the correct path with your choice of REL subwoofers.  Your speakers are large, and I think you need larger size subs to match.  I also think you should go with a pair of subs to balance things out.  I know a dealer where you can purchase these at a savings.  He is trustworthy and did just what he promised.

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